Saturday, November 17, 2007

Dana Montana Horse Show #1 (From Jimmy Hall)


dana montana horse show-128 - Copy, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

I took these shots earlier this year at Dana Montana's new show barn, (a.k.a. the Belagio of the dairy barns).
I believe Johnny worked these liberty horses at Dana's old place I'm sure he'll take note of the upgrade.
This show was staged quite well with dancing waters and all.
The gal with the high school is Diane Olds, the gal working the liberty horses is Sara Steiner and also Christine Zerbini not shown in these photos.
Quite a colorful setting to say the least. Dana Montana brought in Johnny Zoppe which is quite prevelant that he has added his touch.

James C. Hall

Posted by Buckles at 11/17/2007 06:17:00 AM

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

The bay horse pictured is named Monarch (registered Butterfly Kisses), the number 3 horse in the liberty act. He does a free spanish walk, in time to Frank Sinatra's New York, New York, followed by a hindleg walk, and hindleg pivot. Wade Burck

17 November, 2007 08:26
Buckles said...

Feld Entertainment is missing the boat.
They could frame "Hannah Banana Montana on Ice".

17 November, 2007 08:56
Anonymous said...

Buckles, I don't think Feld Entertainment missed the boat. I don't know if the pictures' show it real well, but that poor girl Sara, is attempting to work the liberty horses without a ringcurb, and just tries to "keep em in the area". Wade Burck

17 November, 2007 09:04
Anonymous said...

To Jimmy Hall. Notr the nice photos of Dana's horse show. I heard that cousin Johnny did a great creative job.

When we made a deal to go there with our acts for the summer I agreed to work her liberty act that Wade trained. Wade was gone.I was not aware of how much training Wade had done and figured that no doubt he had something going to enhance. Was I ever pleasantly surprised to find that the horses were trained and the routine was similar to the routine I had trained Ian Garden's Welsh ponies to do and that Wade had spent time with me taking them over.
They were green broke so it was just a matter of polishing and keeping them honest in their routine. I did enhance on some things and during the season and in a short time had them working nice and smooth and enjoyed working them. The cues were similar from the time we worked together on the ponies after we got the whip stuck and then got it loose. I would suggest that if Wade gave up the tigers he could train liberty horses.

Now as part of my deal I agreed to teach someone to work the horses. I had no intention of permanency again in cold Wisconsin, rememberibng the seven years in Baraboo. So Dana presented Sarah to me. She was not a "horse person" and had been a in house employee doing variety of duties both at the horse farm-exotic animal-petting zoo. Looked kind of clutsy with stringy frame and hair.But we went to practicing and I found her to be an apt pupil. She paid attention and did her mental homework. She got where she could work them very good and even took in my explanation on what to do in the routines if something went wrong. It was a sophisticated routine with head and tail walt, split in two directions and the general complete liberty routine. I note that she has worked them ever since and note the wardrobe and nice presence in the ring.
Only thing lacking was all rearing. Wade had trained in that ice cold barn during the winter with hardly any help and I also never had the help or alotted time to get that done.

I understand that Diane Olds and her wonderful Freisian high school is no longer there and they do not have any "in house trained horses or trainers in high school training". But Dana is quite determined and if they are out there I am sure she will ferret them out. Its nice to see another equestrian show and get more young people interested in the Equestrian arts. I am all for it.

P.S.Wade also trained a young camel, horse and pony in a routine.I would dare to say that training and presenting liberty and especially High School are a very difficult form of animal training and there are few o0ut there that can do it. I am proud that the "Herriott Sisters" are accomplished in both endeavors.

17 November, 2007 10:06
Anonymous said...

To Wade. I heard the same about "no ring" and was phone called to ask about doiing it in some 65ft. area and said I didn't believe it could effectively be done. Dana does not want a ring curb out there to take away from her horse arena effect, but the could easily do the show with the other acts using the ring and outside track. Or get some six or eight decorative standards and ornamental rope to drape in a ring of reasonable size. Shame to screw up an excellent liberty act. IF I were there I would insist on doing it either way.

17 November, 2007 10:19
Anonymous said...

Trying to train a liberty act in 65 to 70 ft. area would pose alot of problems. Maybe the ingenius craftsmen, machinest of the Zoppe-Hall family could invent an oversize fishing reel so I wouldn't get all tangled up in the long lunge lines.

17 November, 2007 10:46
Buckles said...

On the other hand it might save a lot of work. After changing the ring once or twice, it would be time to leave.

17 November, 2007 12:15
Anonymous said...

Col. Herriott, when I told Ms. Montana (who is a dear friend), that the liberty act wouldn't work good in a 65 foot open ended octagon, she asked Diane Olds Rossi what she thought. Diane said, "Liberty act?" Is that like freestyle dressage?" Dana then said she was going to ask the great Col. Herriott. A few day's later, I asked Dana what Johnny said. She said, "he is nut's, just like you, and said it would't work right". If you know Dana, 2 year's later, she is still asking anyone if it is possible, hoping one day, somebody will say, "oh yes, it would be a piece of cake".
Until then, any problem's are Sara's fault. Sara does a very nice job, and I even passed on the "training tip", about "whip placement", one day when I was helping her. I was shocked when she started crying. It seem's you only passed that "sage bit of training advice" on to me, Col. Herriott!!!! I think you are being a bit unfair, in calling 6 lunge lines, and 3 come along's "hardly any help." At the end of the day, we did the best we could, with what we had, didn't we, my friend.
Wade Burck

17 November, 2007 14:00
Anonymous said...

I am by no means a trainer of anything but remember trying to ride a green horse in a street parade - he was spooked by curbs, storm drains and especially white lines. Would a circular placement of colored sand or even a colored rope in the dirt work?? cc

17 November, 2007 15:55
Anonymous said...

Col. Herriott, I also take offense to your comment about a cold barn in Wisconsin. You, better then anybody, should know that after an hour of running around with 6 sweat dripping, hot, scared horses, the barn will "warm" up nicely. Geez, it would be great if it was a perfect world. I was also informed that you offered the "where to put the whip training tip" to Phillip Anthony also. It might explain some of his issues. I know I use it to explain my behavior sometimes. Wade Burck

17 November, 2007 16:01
Anonymous said...

When I was a young boy helping my father and standing in the back ring door in a freezing cold ring barn in Iowa and shaking from the cold, while as Wade says, when you are in the ring busy training and the horses are all warmed up you would not notice the cold. My dad would line up the horses for a breather and I would remark in a shaking voice, jumping up and down and say "hey dad I am froze" and he would slide a section of curb to fill the back opening and have me run behind the horses until I got warmed up as well.

A number of years ago I played Detroit for Dobritch with Mills Bros. animals and old George Hanneford Sr. was there in the middle of winter. He swaid to me, " Hey Johnny do you come in the ring barn in the morning and back up to that wood stove scratching you ass before you start in the ring? I laughed and assured him he was right about that. He had been in those situations many times and knew all about it.

17 November, 2007 17:21
Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
With all due respect, riding one horse, and turning 6 loose, is apples and oranges, no matter how "green" it is. The colored sand deal, has been used successfully by Cavalia for three horses. But you have to take note of the two area's the horses focus their attention on at all times to realize it's limits and application's. The purpose of a ring curb, as I understand it, and I hope (no, I am confident) Col. Herriott will correct me is thus. It is similar to a round pen, only not as tall. As horses were some of the first animals trained for exhibition's/circus round was the only choice of shapes. It cause's the animals shoulder's to arc to the outside, keeping their heads inside, thus keeping their attention on the trainer. If the ring is square, animals are stopped by the corners. Arena's are round for the same purpose. It allow's for a continuous flow of group animal movement. The skill in liberty training is keeping them inside a 12 to 14 inch high "round pen". The situation in Wisconsin is in essence a quarter of a ring. They go around the round front nicely, but then the ring disappears into straight wall's and they run for the back of the ring (dancing water's tank) for guidance. The ring curb and the trainers position are the same as leg's on a saddle horse. Take one leg off,(or back up) and they will go (come) in that direction until the leg (trainer) is applied once again.
This next question is for the illustrious Col. I have my thought's on this issue, and I would value your opinion/insight. In a standard 40ft. ring, is it easier to "keep together", 1,6, or 12 horses? I am like James C. Hall. He got stuck in a bear rut, with all those fine elephant act's around, and I got stuck in a tiger rut with all those fine liberty act's around. Wade Burck

17 November, 2007 17:28
cwdancinfool said...

I have seen this show several times and it is just not the same without Dianne. As for the liberty horses, most of the people who come to the show don't know the difference. Sitting in stands when things were just not going right at all I have noticed that the audience still loves it, especially when the horses step up on the ring curb along the front of the arena. I think that Mr. Herriott and Mr. Burck have done a wonderful job with these horses considering the arena they have to work in. I also remember seeing Mr. Herriott at Circus World Museum and first met Dianne when she was with Mr. Cuneo.

17 November, 2007 21:20
Anonymous said...

cwdancinfool,
No disrespect, but thinking nobody know's the difference, is the same thing Circus Producers used to think when they would produce a cheap, second-rate show. We've now seen the wrongness of that type of thinking in our venue. I would also suggest that if they loved something going wrong, they would possibly never forget it, and maybe even recommend it, if it went right. Similiar to,it not being the same without Diane there. That said, thank you for the complement. They are indeed fine horses. Wade Burck

18 November, 2007 00:18
Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Wade,
I know you din't just say,"We did the best we could, with what we had"
You hate that line.
Wayne Franzen told me he trained his first lion act in a square arena, cause he didn't know any better. He also told me it didn't take long to figure out why it has to be round.

18 November, 2007 09:05
Anonymous said...

One of the most frightening things I ever saw was a cat act in a square arena. It was back in the 80's when I was at the zoo in Tegucigalpa, Honduras and we'd just traded with a little circus from Salvador for their polar bear. They had a Colombian gentleman who worked two tigers in a square arena made out of wood and wire and every time he backed into one of the corners all that I could do was cringe. Later I decided that the assistant outside the cage with the surplus Kalashnikov rifle was the guy I should have been watching. He could have accidentally taken out half the audience. A few years later I saw the same presenter working a pretty funny act with a hippo in Guatemala and somebody told me they'd bought the hippo in Panama and on the trip north through Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and Honduras whenever they needed gas they would pull in to a filling station and put it on "exhibit" until they made enough to fill the tank.

18 November, 2007 10:18
Anonymous said...

Casey, Just to refresh your memory. "The best we could, with what we had", comment was my effort at being "charming". Granted it was a weak effort, but an effort non the less. Thank you for pointing it out, and making it even more insignifignt. Now don't bother, me as I am making arrangement's for the arrival of America's Premier Animal Behavorist. Wade Burck

18 November, 2007 10:35
Anonymous said...

Wade, that is an interesting question about working different numbers of liberty horses in the ring. I have been aware of this for a number of years. To explain what I have observed.

Now it certainly takes more skill to train or routine a twelve horse as opposed to six or eight, however when they are fully trained in some cases I find they are easier to work because they are all kept close together and kind of have to flow with the other horses or get all messed up. Kind of like soldiers marching and one screws up. With six or eight there is more open areas in the ring and with twelve they are pretty much locked in.

I would never train a liberty act in a 38-to 40 ft. round pen. As you recall in my round pen training ring it was about 55ft. and I had the ring curb set up a few feet inside all around so that immediately in training I was able show them to stay in the ring at all times. A little awkward at times but paid off when I had the finished product.

40 ft. would be too large for a six act or ponies as they would be far from the trainer fror communication. For anything less than twelve I like about 36 ft. Poor Sarah must have a lousy set up.

Now I have "two rules of thumb" in training and working liberty horses. The trainer should always be able to see the eye on each horse and the horse4s should then also be able to see the trainer. A number two horse can acquire a habit when going two abreast to run slightly ahead of the lead horse and then it can start an uncontrolled race, so number two must kknow to stay slightly back and that brings in the eye contact in all cases of twos, fours, etc.

Also the horses in the training and executingof routines should always turn toward the trainer, never away, except for some special movement, and this brings together the line up, waltz, voltaes, etc. making easier in training and showing for one or more to not "mess up"

The effectivness of a liberty act to be favorably received by the audience is the perfection executed in the routines. One going the wrong way, getting ahead of another or jumping out of the ring is a no-no. But of late I have seen a number that are not up to snuff. Working without horness can cover up a multitude of little sins as the public is not quite sure what the hell they are doing. These are all my personal reflection and observations and am sure other trainers could take issue, but I have been reasonably succsessful and it works for me.

In training naturally you like to get the horses to smell the ass of the horse that runs in front of them and then I like to start by turning them in the ring and get all out of place and then maneuver them until they find their right place in line. In the European acts I have worked with this is not the case and a groom would have to jump in the ring, grab the out of place horse and get him back to where he belongs. This years Blue Show was the worst liberty presentation I have ever seen in those awful blow op rings and grooms in the ring with lunge lines. The were all getting paid on false pretenses.

One time tough old time circus owner-animal man,Ben Davenport, visiting me on Mills Bros. and noting my skills with various domestic animals asked me if I would be interested in training about a five lion act for Pete and Norma's new show. I said, Ben I don't know the first thing about that kind of training and would't know what to do. He laughed and replied, "Hell, you can do it, others have, You kinow they can't jump out of the ring and thats a head start right there" Sincerely Johnny

18 November, 2007 10:35
cwdancinfool said...

Wade,
I didn't mean that the general public not knowing when things go wrong is a good thing, but a lot of people really don't. One performance Sarah was struggling just to keep the horses in line and they were all over the place and the audience oohed and aaahhed as if they were doing something wonderful. And unfortunatly, the subtleties of an act like Dianne's are lost on these people too. Her imperceptible cues make it look effortless and people are more impressed by a horse racing around the arena, not knowing that he is out of control. As Mr. Herriott said, Sarah was not a horse person, but has done a very good job and obviously listened very closely to what she was taught. She handles it very well when things don't go as planned with the horses and with the bird show.
I went to Noble Horse in Chicago last week and there was someone with a long line horse attempting piaffe, passage, etc. He even did one decent levade, but in between he was trying to kick her head off. I thought he was warming up for a capriole, but that never happened. However, the audience oohed and aaahed and even applauded every time he kicked out at her. She was going around the outside of the ring curb and one time almost got caught between the horse and ring curb when the horse moved into her, like a trainer getting caught in the corner of a square cage.

18 November, 2007 11:36
Anonymous said...

Hand raising from the back of Prof. Herriott's classroom:
Thank you Johnny for the insight. I agree with you completely on all point's. I had never thought about any more then a 40 ft. ringcurb, (what with being a center ring attraction all of my career. Come on. Relax everybody, it's a joke. I'm just trying to give James C. Hall and Casey an opening).
You are only the 4th Trainer, Col. of the multitude I have asked, that have come to the conclusion that there is more area to control with one horse instead of 12, training aside. When the leader is behind 12, there are not many places for him to run, and like you I have yet to see a harnessless liberty act, that come's close to a precise harnessed one in beauty. You mention seeing the eye of each horse in two's. The NSH's in question, working in a quarter of a ring, now race to the back and do a "lead change", instead of two's. Did you train that? I don't know if I like it as well as the two's.
The story I heard on the Ben Davenport Jungle Herriott deal, was that it was 86ed because you couldn't fiquire out how to put a carrot on the end of that pointed stick.
Col., I hope it was as good for you as it was for me. Do you mind if I have a cigarrete?
Wade Burck

18 November, 2007 11:52
Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Wade, give my best to "The Other Larry", I was out all day building 200ft of Historical privacy fence in downtown Paris. The Historical Commissioner came out when I was finished and said,"these 4 pickets are not spaced in the uniform 3.2 inch gap" I said "I did the best I could with what I had" He said " You will do better if you want paid" So while you and Larry are sitting on ring curb, trying to be like Mr. Herriot, and Mr. Cristiani tomorrow, I will be trying to figure out how to make an inch and a half outta thin air. Boy this Town-Biz, is alrite!!

18 November, 2007 18:54
cwdancinfool said...

If you want to see what this show looked like when Dianne was there you can go to YouTube, search Equidancer, and select the video titled Dancing Horse Dinner Theater. It includes Sarah, Dianne, Laura Amandis, and I don't know the name of the lady at the beginning of the video. Unfortunately, Sarah is the only one still there.

18 November, 2007 20:46
Anonymous said...

cwdancinfool,

I get the impression by your last poste, that you feel I was being critical of Ms. Steiner. I applaude her, and bot Col. Herriott and myself pointed out that it is the facility design that is causing her the problem's. I have seen her work in a round ring in the past, and she does fine. In regard's to Noble Horse, I think what you were hearing is what is know as "polite applause". The spectator's will even do it if a juggler drop's a clubb. The applause after he catches them all, is the appreciative real one. If you noticed the fiasco going on, I promise somebody else did too. Maybe, as Casey just stated, "pay in proportion" has something to do with it. Wade Burck

18 November, 2007 20:59
cwdancinfool said...

Wade,
No, I didn't think you were being critical of her. I know you have worked with her and appreciate the work she has done there and the effort she puts into the show. I also understand polite applause, but I have been on both sides of this and when I am in the audience I listen to the comments people make during and after a show.
I have much respect for you and Mr. Herriott and the years and years and years you have been doing this. I also find this blog very educational and often quite amusing. I hope I get to actually meet you some day.

18 November, 2007 22:30
Anonymous said...

Gosh, this is all so interesting and thank you all that have seen my horses and enjoyed them. The biggest problem for me at Dana Montana's, other than management, was the irregular small arena. Unfortunately the arena size gave no one a chance to "do their thing". It was too big and square cornered for liberty acts and terribly small and round for my performing horses. It was terribly destructive for a really top notch high school horse unable to go straight at any time. Since you are forced to do tricks at the same place every performance not only do you lose brillance but then have to deal with anticipation at every turn. I am still fixing my horses and I have been gone since August.

It seems that the show has limited itself to few acts that can sustain the rigors of two shows a day in such a small and confined area. Also the audience is very close to the horses so any antimated response from them becomes critical to the performance of the horses.

I also would like to comment on what I saw Wade do with the liberty horses while I was there. Not being a knowledgable person in the art of liberty horses I saw the horses at Dana's do beautiful waltzes and lineups in a calm and precise manner performing happily tricks they hadn't done in 5 years. Monarch the single liberty horse performed astonishing tricks and I had beem watching these same horses for 2 years and never knew they were so trained. Too bad his knowledge wasn't acted upon while he was feeding his "passion". I think it's a shame that audeinces cannot see any animal act in the excellence it was trained.

Dianne Olds Rossi

18 November, 2007 23:02
Anonymous said...

cwdancingfool,

Fear not. Ms. Amandis normally makes a multitude of guest appearances and disappearances throughout the season. You should be able to catch her now and then.

Wade Burck

18 November, 2007 23:17
Anonymous said...

Here is one I think all you trainers of animals and others as well might enjoy hearing. All of us are frquently asked by interested people, "Howlong does it take to train that act"?
I now reply," Well we start with working various horses alone or together depending on the situation and this can mean a total daily training time of three or four hours. So the goal is to narrow that time down in a matter of a few months to EIGHT MINUTES.

19 November, 2007 09:00
Anonymous said...

Hello Madame Col.
Thank you for weighing in on the "issue". I agree with you wholeheartedly about an audience deserving to see an animal at it greatest. I also think a lot of people don't realize the audience may be a lot more "knowledgeable" then we give them credit for. They seem to have become disapointed the past 20 years or so, in regard's to animal performances. I am not talking about the 6 to 12 year old audience, as they are happy with most anything.
I also would suggest that if I bought a race car, painted it up in the most beautiful baked on, metallic paint, and covered it in chrome from fender to fender, but decided it didn't need tires, and then hired Richard Petty to drive it, we might have differing opinion's as to it's functionality.
Wade Burck

P. S. I hope the "big red boy", is happy and fit. Give Baby and his pal a carrot from me, and tell Roman just to relax and take a chill pill.

19 November, 2007 09:20
Buckles said...

Tho uneducated in the Equestrian Arts, I did spend several seasons on The Big Apple Circus with the Schumann horses.

19 November, 2007 09:39
Anonymous said...

tO dIANNE, nice to hear you join in on our comments. I can well understand management being a factor as well.

When a person puts on a "Horse Show" of that nature and does not have six or eight riders and horses together for production routines, Ala Arabian Nights, Midevil Times, Dixie Stampede, etc. along with principal horse numbers, but you do have a fine matched liberty horse act that can fill that void and could be the Signature presentation it would seem that it would be exhibited to its best advantage and that would mean a nice Ring Curb among other things. When the inside horse goes back to single by running ahead of the outside horse, Thats BAD and leads to other screw ups as well. Too bad to deliberately allow a fine horse act to disintagrate for some hard headed reason. We don't have enough liberty acts as is.

19 November, 2007 10:24
Anonymous said...

Col Herriott,
By your comment, I guess I can assume that the "lead change" out of the two's was not something you trained after I left. LOL You knowledge, even after not seeing it, makes you rightly assume that it is a down hill slide from there. If you also recall, the two's is the second behav( whoop's, sorry trick), after the opening reverse. That will indicate how much of a "liberty act" the public get's to see. If you think poor Sara was gangly and skinny when you knew her, you should see her after a year of trying to out race those hot blood's.
My response to the, "how long does it take to train an animal to do that", is this. "It depend's on long he want's to argue with me, before he does what I am teaching him".

Wade Burck

19 November, 2007 11:28
Anonymous said...

Madame Col. Rossi,

I wish you luck on your trip to Holland, and your "triumphant return to the back of Lucas". If I can, I would like to offer a piece of advice. I'm not saying you have forgotten it, as you "kindly" reminded me of it many times, but in case you have, here it is. "Keep your goddamn leg's back, stay out of his mouth, and push him forward."

Wade Burck

19 November, 2007 13:00
Anonymous said...

Wade, I agree in the past 20 years I have seen a steady downfall of any "horsemanship" endeavors. In my field, the Horse Expos have put many good people out of business by accepting the wanna bees who own the pretty horses and a few costumes. They will go anywhere and ride for free regardless whether they entertain or not because they can appear under lights and become a star in their own eyes. I put the fault at these business's who hire the amateur directors, who get these people for free and think they are presenting a show. The end result is audience of complete boredom watching horses going roundy, roundy is a huge stadium arena. Then they hire the amateur entertainer who can do a little bit and they pay him a little bit and the crowd is wowed, not by talent but by relief from boredom. I believe it's a sad state and thank goodness Europe still respects the talented and knowable.

19 November, 2007 23:31

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