Monday, March 31, 2008

Miller-Johnson Circus 1972 (From Jim Cole)


scan0023, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

At Saturday night's gabfest, John Herriott pointed out that he had never seen a picture of Smokey Jones working an elephant act in wardrobe and surprisingly, I never had either.
Jim Cole came up with this shot of Smokey, Kari and "Anna May".
When we all joined this show in 1972, it was owned by Charlie Germaine but shortly after arrival we learned that the new owner was Clifford E. Vargas.
Barbara and Ben worked "Anna May" in the first half of the program, then later in the elephant display, the Cristiani elephants were in the center, I worked "Billie" in one end while Smokey and Kari did a trick or two with "Anna May" so Cliff could have his 3 ring display. Smokey had traveled to California with us to pick up his baby elephant "Tika" and wound up staying for the rest of our time there. Cliff liked using her for publicity, etc.

Another subject that arose was what current elephant man has been in charge of the same circus owned elephants for the longest period of time and it was decided this distinction goes to John Pelton of the Gatti-Charles Circus.

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

I though we decided to give the honor of longest tenure as circus elephant supt. to the late Freddy Logan with Beatty - Cole, 1970 - 1996 (or was it '97) ? Did I miss something? I only had one rum coke. But now that I think about it, How about Gunther on Ringling...1968 - 2001? (After he "retired" in 1989 from the ring, he still remained on the show)

Buckles said...

You know how you alcoholics are!
What "current" elephant man.

Anonymous said...

Oh, I must have missed the word "current". I told that bartender not to put too much rum in that drink!

Anonymous said...

Jimmy: Next time order current wine.

Buckles: If you start dissing the alcoholics you'll lose a big chunk of your readers.

Anonymous said...

Before I get a bad reputation, especially from those whom do not know me, these comments are in jest. I usually only have one drink when I go out, especially if I have to drive any distance.
Jimmy Cole

Anonymous said...

Jimmy Cole,
All your friends, know that it is in jest, and they are what count. I realize you may have paniced at seeing others maligned, but relax. Just be thankful the poste went through. LOL

Anonymous said...

how long has Pelton been with Gatti?

Jorge Pages has worked his elephants for 18 years

Tomi Liebel has worked his elephant for 20 years

George Carden has worked elephants for 25+ years and so has Ramone Esqueda, working the same herd on different shows.

Buckles said...

I'm sure sorry I went down this road.
I worked my elephants for 102 years.
The F'n debate concerned current elephant men who were in charge of elephants owned by a circus.

Anonymous said...

Who's Tomi Liebel?? How many elephants does he have? What show?

Anonymous said...

Best guess these days, Gary Jacobsen, though obviously not on the road. After that, maybe Tim Frisco, who still plays spot dates on the road.

Anonymous said...

Somebody Have Ramone's Route?..He owes me $$$$........Jim Zajicek (Manco)

Buckles said...

I give up!

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

If the debate is of who is currently working elephants, for someone else, that have been on the road for the most consecutive years I would have to agree John "Bubba" Pelton would have to win hands down. I wouldn't think there would even be any debate.

Anonymous said...

But to get back to the booze question, Jimmy: Don't you know it's not a DUI if you drive less than twenty miles?

Oh by the way: current wine is made with a type of grapes called currents. It was a gag.

Anonymous said...

What about Herbie Head!...I seen him myself feed the wooden Elephants at the Baraboo fairgrounds in "84.........Jim Zajicek

Anonymous said...

does anybody know if Pat has the 8 white lions yet. Martin

Anonymous said...

Actually, Pat wants to keep this White Lion thing unpublicized for a while. She told me it will not be easy to put this group together.

However she has been working with big cats now for over 30 years, and yes, she has trained cats before. I'm sure she will do very well with them.

I join her many friends in wishing her the best.

Jimmy Cole

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Was there a group that WAS easy to put together? Or will these cats be harder, because they are white?

Anonymous said...

By not being easy in regard to 8 white lions. Would that mean they might not be easy get or that they would not be easy to train. I can't imagine a all green broke would be easy to train, whatever. Are there white lions that are being bred, like the tigers or are they just a freak of nature. Sounds like an expensive endeavor. good luck.

Anonymous said...

Not being a trainer myself, I can only go by what other trainers have told me. From what I understand, these lions are around 2 years old, and this might be a bit on the high end as far as age goes to start training. However I understand that they have had human contact since birth. I'm not sure if the White color has anything to do with their learning ability. When it comes to tigers, some trainers have told me that for intelligence, they prefere the standard color. Opinions vary, I have seen some very well trained White Tigers.

In this day and age, I think it is important to train animals so they at least appear to be enjoying themselves in the ring. Pat White has always presented and trained animals that way, as have many other fine trainer/presenters in recent years.

Jimmy Cole

Anonymous said...

Tomi Liebel is the owenr of a european style circus. He's based out of Haines City, FL area. He currently owns one elephant, Nosey. His show travels on 7 show onwed vehicles and 4 personal rv's.

As his booking agent, I will tell you Tomi Liebel is one of a kind


DanTheBooker

GaryHill said...

Tom always has a COLD Miller High Life at the ready!

Anonymous said...

Gary,
you are acorrect, as well as sparkling water and wine!

Wade G. Burck said...

Jimmy Cole,
I think the difficulty of any training assignment depends the experience of the person actually doing the training. Flying a fighter jet may seem difficult to me, but to John Glenn and Chuck Yeager it is a piece of cake.
If an animal is trained right it doesn't have to "at least appear" anything except how it was trained. The public does not fool to much now day's. What is "enjoyment?" Is he happy working? Can we ask him? No. Or is he happy with no stress? Can we ask him? Yes. Difficulty and stress depends 100% on how they are trained, and the experience of the trainer.
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Pat,
You must have started training when you were about 8 years old, either that or you have aged to 42 so gracefully that no one can tell.
Bob Kitto

Anonymous said...

"In this day and age" leaves me bewildered in that there is a new flow of animal training. That all sounds good, but there are certain procedures that are vitally important and will never change and as Wade has suggested should be done by a qualified experienced trainer. First must be discipline, started immediately. Then patience, and realizing how much it can absorb mentally during each training session, and of course what can it be able to do to build up to some physical endeavors. An experienced trainer pretty well knows what can be expected during each training session, And then when you feel you have put it all together they throw a "wing ding" and its back to the drawing board to get back to "sqare one". As I like to say,"you start with a two or three hour training each day and over a period of three to four months and gradually narrow it down to about eight to ten minutes.

Wade G. Burck said...

Johnny,
The more different species of animals you train the more you realize the principals are the same for each species, the behaviors they can perform physically and their enviornment are the only thing different(ie. Falcons can fly, tigers cannot. Killer whales can breach, elephants cannot. Sealions can balance a ball on their nose, horses cannot. Enviornment, because some can fly, swim, run if they become frightened, and some are contained by a cage or by hand. Abuse can enter into the training of a "contained" animal given that fact it can't flee leading to "attacks." Along the same lines as the 3 to 4 hours, down to 8 to 10 mins. I was telling a young contemporay the other day who has a new tiger, you will use 50lbs of meat to seat train it, and 5lbs of meat to get it to walk on it's hind legs one year later. The most important element in the training is timing(ie. when to apply the spur, and when not to, how much or how little.)
These are all things that, as you state, come from EXPERIENCE. Timing cannot be "taught".
Johnny, I am sure you will not mind if I give one more "trade secret" that we have both learned after many years. That is the "one more time" principal. How important is that, Johnny. It comes under the heading, EXPERIENCE.
Welcome back friend,
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

From a guy that trained an elephant so they made him a sea lion trainer: When I began with sea lions it was very frustrating. You don't use an ankus, you can't restrain them, etc. With some help and encouragement from experienced trainers I finally caught on that it helped to work at a different tempo. A few years into marine mammal training I began to associate with dolphin trainers. They used words like "behavior" and "intermittent reinforcement"; some thought that they had invented the training wheel. Some did produce some very well trained animals. Of course, we recoginize there had been some excellent trainers in the circus for centuries. As time went on I learned more about training terminology and, has Wally Ross told me, "talked like a space pilot". I'd watch friends work with their animals and think how I'd describe their training technique. I discovered that you can technicially describe anyone's training methods, and most of them work. Whether you said "kabooboolize" (sp?) or discrimnative stimulus didn't really matter if you got results. Good training isn't a new thing, positive reinforcement isn't new, and everyone who's been around a while has experienced "one more time." It took a while but I now believe sea lion training's not that different from elephant training -- maybe even white tiger training. The art of training could explain our slight difference in styles but the basics are still the same.

Anonymous said...

Jim A,
Excellent point. That was my point, and the point in the "European/American" debate, which was clear too you. And yes if I can train white tigers in a Gunther Bra, you could also do it is white patent leather Pat Boone shoes. LOL
Because of that thing called EXPERIENCE and UNDERSTANDING. If more realized that restraint of a land mammal was a aid as a bucket of fish is an aid for a sea mammal, there would have been no animal rights training issues, only enviornmental issues. Experience is not how many years with the same animal, but how many years with different individuals.
I know someone who checked 6 books out of the library on sea lions, and 30 day's later was a Sealion presenter. Often times, same deal in this field Jim. When experience has a price tag, the animals and the craft are short changed.
Regard,
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Strictly from behavioral stand point I think it's pretty clear that all behaviors in all animal capable of complex behavior break down into motive/reaction units. Whether you're an "old school" trainer, or a "behaviorist" using operant "conditioning" and whatever terms you want to apply, ultimately animals still "learn" the same way.

For years people would ask me what I "studied" in college. I'd say, "ethology." "Is that something to do with words," most of them would reply. To make it easier I started to tell people, "I'm a behaviorist." Then I met all those 17 year old "behaviorists" presenting bird shows. For the last 20 years or so when asked I find it's much easier to say, "In college I studied girls..." and just leave it at that.

henry edgar said...

Everyone is making great points. this is the way it should be, not sniping and hiding behind anonymous.

henry edgar said...

ben - your answer to what you studied in college is, sadly, the most honest answer most guys could give!

Anonymous said...

We are generally quite aware of the great trainers of various specie of animal over the years and the marvelous work they did accomplish. But as with any of the great masters of all the arts we also face the fact of their various quirks, and or, idiosycrasies that would have an impact on their successes in the field. Jenda was great with a Single O elephant, but would probably be a disaster with a three ring Ringling Spectacular, And so on, Hugo had his way in regard to routines, ec. And Buckles put it all together having seen most of the guys who were who. Alot of non-discript trainers would have excellent abilities that might never come to light and some people are given training jobs that are tot6ally over their head. Try to figure that out.

Wade G. Burck said...

Johnny,
I think in our industry it is as simple as "how much will it cost." And as there is no standard, it is left up to each person to decide, is it good, or is it bad.
In an animal industry, such as the Arabian Show industry, which has a standard set at what it must do, and how it must do it, "how much will it cost", is not much of an issue. If you have just spent 60 to 70 thousand dollars on a horse, in which to win competitions
you are not going to go shopping for the cheapest trainer. Not if you expect to win, at the standards that are set. As a trainer you don't sell many of those 60 to 70 thousand dollar horses, unless you are capable of producing them.
In 1999, one of the best Arabian halter trainers/conditioners in the United States, who was often referred to as the Gunther Gebel of Halter horses, was suspended for 5 years for "breaking" the rules set by the Arabian industry. Five years of banishment from his profession. He is now back producing some of the top champions, and commanding the top compensation. How's that for setting a "standard" and policing it?
Best wishes,
Wade Burck

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Amazing Wade,
You mean to tell me there is an industry of animal training, with a set of rules on how the animal can or can not be trained, and if you break these rules, you can't make money doing that for a set amount of time. This possibly explains how the horse industry has dodged the AR's bullets for so long. Self policing, what an idea.....

Anonymous said...

Wade and Casey - in Australia, where the AR people are borderline lunatics, we grappled with the problem of how to combat them. By and large the media were on their side, school teachers were on their side, trendy politicians at all levels were on their side - we were on a hiding to nothing.

We don't have independent cat acts or elephant acts in this country - such acts are owned by the circus owners themselves.

Some of the more progressive circuses set up the Circus Federation of Australia which, for the first time in our country's history, meant that we started working with each other rather than flying solo. We still had our disagreements among ourselves [believe me!!!!] but we also worked together on common problems - vehicle licensing, insurance, the AR problem ......that sort of thing.

The Federation developed a set of Standards for different species of animals living and working in circuses - things like minimum space requirements, social groupings, acceptable tricks and so on. It took us a while to all agree on the end result, and some people never have agreed even today, but when we ended up with our Code of Practice we went to the various State governments and asked for our Code to be madelaw in their State. Some of the States fiddled with our Code a bit but, by and large, we ended up with laws that we can live with. And now that we have these laws we have taken a lot of sting out of the AR arguments. A government that has enacted a law to regulate circus animals is less likely to favourably respond to a request to BAN them.

It aint perfect but it is working for us. If you want a copy of the Code email me your mailing address and I'll snail mail it to you.

Steve Robinson.
ssrob@darlingdownszoo.com.au

Anonymous said...

A fair number of top trainers of hunters and jumpers have gotten into trouble too, as have some riders, particularly show jumpers. Five year, even ten years bans. And it is self policing by breed organizations, AHSA, etc. ...though some incidents have led to criminal charges as well. My brother Lewis, who has been trainer of the year at Pony Nationals several times and now coaches two college teams likes to say that if buys the right $30,000 horse in April, works with it and puts a good Junior Rider on board and does well in Ocala, or Aiken, or at Winter Fair in Toronto, etc. he can often sell it as a legitimate $100,000 horse for Christmas. You don't want to mess with that kind of "golden goose."

Anonymous said...

Mr. Robinson...I would be interested in the code...My E-mail is curatoroftheunusual@hotmail.com Thanks....Sincerely Jim Zajicek

henry edgar said...

a set of standards and self-policing might make a world of difference in dealing with the animal rights people. it would certainly show an intent to do the right thing. i think it's a great idea.

Wade G. Burck said...

Mr. Robinson,
Why are there no privately owned animal act's in Australia?

Ben,
"golden goose?" Could that by the public why buy's their product. They better be careful, Ben. If they ever have to face animal rights, movies, videos, cost, gas, etc. etc. etc. they will have trouble. Wait a minute, they do face those things. How do they do it? I know. They asked the Golden Goose,(not each other) how they could improve their product, so that the Goose would buy more of it. Novel idea don't you think?
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Jim and Wade - the tax man calls me Mr Robinson when he comes to "help" me, my mother could get away with calling me Stephen but every one else just calls me Steve.

Jim - I will try to scan the document and email it to you but my knowledge of computers just about starts and ends with the on/off switch. If I can't do it I'll email you direct.

Wade - Australia's population has just hit 21 million. We've never had the population to sustain a full time animal act supply industry. Not just for circus but also for movies etc. To have good animals and animal people they have to work consistently and that has never been possible for outside contractors. So, with an eye on the dollar also, circus families tended to do their own training and presenting. Sometimes we'd engage a trainer for a while to break in an act and then someone in the family would subsequently present it. In that way people like Tommy Chipperfield, Schubert Sulson, Alfons Arndt, Jerome Kirwan and LAD came to Australia for a limited time. At the end of the day it was a dollar thing.

Things are changing a bit now.The introduction of minimum standards has meant that the animal side of things is getting a bit more specialised and so animals are taking more time to look after - can't fit 'em in between putting up the tent and the seats any more! Young blokes in the circus families don't want to spend years serving their animal apprenticeship shoveling s**t when they can become instant stars with a guitar in their hand. And, of course, the town chickybabes these days prefer pasty faced, pimply faced, sensitive new age guys to rough, outdoor animal blokes.

But the ticket buying public still want to see animal acts.

So the animal act contractor is finally starting to be in demand in this country. We are breaking in a new lion act for spot dates and other people are putting together dog acts, pony acts etc. We've got a long way to go to get to the size and status of, say, the Hawthorn enterprise in the States but we are finally on the way.

All this could be jeopardised by the AR people and their erroneous propaganda so the industry set of self-regulatory Standards gave us a very effective tool to wave back at them. Now that those Standards have become law in most States we are winning more battles against them than we are losing.
Steve Robinson.

Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
While applauding the efforts at joining together(oh so difficult) to set a standards list, the fact that is is compiled by show owners, makes it suspect from the start, and would appear to be self serving and more of an effort at "siege warfare" against the Animal rights movement. Are standards set because there was a necessity, or as a means of defense? What changes in the world of animal husbandry have been bad changes?. What changes would have been initiated for their sake, and not as a means to "get the heat off?"
Yes the public does want to see animals in the circus. But the media, school teachers, politicians are also the public, usually doing what the public dictates, especially the politicians. Why did that public turn away? We must be careful that the public we are listening to is not a self serving public.
Your reference to "size and status", shows me that the chickybabes there are no different then the chickybabes here. LOL
Regards,
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Wade - you are right [of course!] on most points.

It was a helluva job to get most of Australia's show owners together - it had never happened before. I well remember us all leaving a city lawyer's office in Melbourne very early in the process. We were all crammed in to a lift when Robert Perry quipped that if Animal Liberation dropped a bomb on the building they would wipe out every Aussie circus in one go!

In Australia the Standards had to be compiled by the show owners because they owned the animal acts - there were virtually no independent exotic animal acts in this country. However, we all contributed to the engagement of a professional veterinarian to research the subject and compile the actual document. That removed us a step or two from the process and gave the finished document some further credibility.

Yes - it is self serving. Of course it is! Before we developed the Standards we were on a hiding to nothing from the AR mob. Now we speak publicly with a unified voice and have a professionally prepared document to back us up.

Obviously the Standards include measures which have been adopted because they were absolutely necessary and some shows had not moved with the times. In a previous post I was interested to read that Col Herriott blew the Vargas show because of their failure to provide shade for elephants and hoofed stock. Here in Australia we had a couple of shows that fought tooth and nail against being compelled to provide shade for elephants because "... we've never had to do it before". Changes like these were initiated for their own sake and, in the process, did help to get the heat off.

The public in Australia did not "turn away". In fact, their support for real circuses with animals is stronger than ever. Without it we would not be here anymore. The media, school teachers, politicians etc are not RESPONDING to public opinion - they are endeavouring to FORM public opinion. The AR people have been very clever at blurring the public's mind as to the difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare. A lot of our AR groups have a politically committed hierarchy who are there for their own gain [in whatever form that may take]. But the rank and file are just cannon fodder to make up the numbers when it comes to waving banners and so on. They don't know the difference between Rights and Welfare. A set of Standards will never sway the hierarchy but it can be very usefull when dealing with people who are truly interested in Animal Welfare.

Works for us!

Steve Robinson.
ssrob@darlingdownszoo.com.au

Anonymous said...

Wade - would you send me your email address and I'll send you a copy of the Australian Circus Standards.

Also - would you be able to send me a copy of the white tiger history that was recently on the Blog? I can't find it here anywhere. It was probably the most definitive work on white tigers that I have ever seen.

Do you know anything about the background of the white tigers that came to Dreamworld in Australia from the States? they came with Jonathon Minor and Patrick Martin-Vegue ...... both of whom have stayed in Australia.

Regards,
Steve Robinson
ssrob@darlingdownszoo.com.au

Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
Excellent points. Excellent and honest. Thank you. I will only ask, what do veterinarians know about animal training, and what are acceptable training methods, and what are unacceptable training/handling methods? Who is qualified, and who is not? What qualifies someone? Acceptable hiding or unacceptable hiding. LOL Those were the standards that the horse industry set, as husbandry was never an issue.
It is unfortunate that the white tiger debate evaporated. I will be glad to send it to you, plus the edited version, and will look forward to your protocols.
Well done,
Wade Burck
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Wade - most vets [in my experience] know SFA about exotic animals, their husbandry or their training. We were lucky I guess to find a vet who realised that he knew SFA about the subject but who was keen enough to research as much material as he could get from around the world. His first few drafts needed a lot of fine tuning but he eventually got himself on to the right track.

What are unacceptable training/handling methods? Depends who is calling the shots! To the AR mob ALL methods are unacceptable. To some of the old-timers the "meat" method is unacceptable. To all of us, any method that causes prolonged "distress" and thus an unacceptable level of "stress" is unacceptable. Let your own conscience be your guide.

What qualifies someone as a proficient trainer/handler? With the species that we work with - survival?

At the end of the day, in a free enterprise society, the public who buy the tickets to watch the results of our work will be the judge.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
I assume you have a different ticket buying public down under. Here in the states, a large percentage have quite buying a ticket. Are you suggesting they don't like what we are doing?


What are unacceptable training/handling methods? Depends who is calling the shots! To the AR mob ALL methods are unacceptable. To some of the old-timers the "meat" method is unacceptable. To all of us, any method that causes prolonged "distress" and thus an unacceptable level of "stress" is unacceptable. Let your own conscience be your guide.

You mention the AR mob as being in agreement that all methods are unacceptable. At least they are unified in their beliefs. You mention "old timers" and I am assuming "new timers" as not even being in agreement on whether meat is acceptable or not acceptable.
How long is "prolonged?" Are the "old timers" and the "new timers" who dispute meat, going to come to a conclusion on that? Conscience? Have you ever known someone without one? Letting each be guided by theirs, brought us to our present state.

Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Sorry Wade - I was that "Anonymous.
This "old timers" memory must be failing so forgot to sign off.
Must need more "meat'.LOL. Will answer your points tonight.
Steve Robinson.

Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
Don't try to "patch" old timers memory to me. I forgot I sent that post, and it was just a couple of hours ago. LOL I also forgot I was supposed to down load something to you. Will do it now. I have an extra string you can have to tie around your finger. If I can remember where I put it.
Your friend,
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

Wade - I've never been to the States so I don't whether your public are different to ours. And I wouldn't dare say that your public are quitting going to the circus because they don't like what you're doing. If they are quitting going to the one true form of family entertainment left in the world, maybe it's for some other reason[s]? I DO know that in Australia the demand for animals in real circuses is extremely strong. We get the Soleils and the Moscows touring here from time to time without animals but they seem to get a different type audience - not the sort of people who patronise Aussie shows 52 weeks of the year. Pity is there's not a lot of skilled animal people left in this country to cater for the demand.

Conscience? Yep, I've met a few people without one! Reckon they might be the ones who've brought us to this present state?

Steve.

Anonymous said...

Hey Wade,

You must have found a lot of strings. I got that material you down loaded to me three times!!!

And I like getting old. Matter of fact, the older I get the better I WAS!!!!
Steve.

Anonymous said...

Wade - you reckon that a lot of the American circus going public have quit buying tickets.

I know that I'm upside down on the other side of the world but it seems from what I can make out on this Blog that there are a heck of a lot of cat acts on shows in the States this year. Am I right?

If so, the owners and/or promoters of those shows must reckon that cat acts are going to bring in the bucks. You guys can't be doing too much wrong.
Steve.

Anonymous said...

Steve,
I when you use many strings to remember many things, you can get confused. I was supposed to send 1 email, get the dog in, and water the plants, not send 3 emails. I'm sorry, and so is the dog, he was cold this morning.
If the AR people are a mob, I am assuming it is the artsy fartsy types that go to Solei's and Moscows. They are the same ones that go here. The Circus shows don't care about them here either. They don't think they need them.
No Steve, sadly there are not many cat acts here any more, maybe a half dozen. Back in the day Hawthorn had that many in their barn. The few working are sprinting across the country for 3 or 4 days, and then heading the other way to pick up 2 more days.
Almost nobody left practicing the craft. We have 2 acts, that we have looked for a year for somebody to present. Reasons? We didn't look for new people willing to learn here in America, we looked to other countries as a solution, who came here because there was no work available in their homeland. They got old they left, and there were no new younger ones to replace them. In rebuilding an act, you need new younger replacements. We just kept adding old animals to the act. Financial incentive, Steve. Where is it? There is a common thing called cost of living increase, 10% for non skilled/non managerial labor such as McDonalds, Burger King. I know of one animal training position that has decreased 32% cost of living in the last 15 years. You are a young man or women who loves animals. 32% decrease look like something you'd be interested in? I think we could sure use some of that artsy fartsy revenue about now.
Your friend,
Wade Burck

Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
That conscience deal we both seem to be in agreement on is indeed a factor. There used to be statues of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Hussen, etc. that were toppled and reduced to rubble. They are not still revered, and held up as shining examples of how great it used to be, and how well they did it. Historically important yes, as a standard to still follow, no way. When they are addressed, and we have shown that we now know better, then maybe the Mobs, artsy fartsys, Radicals, idiots, will back off. We can't keep overlooking/ignoring their downside, because they bought us a popcorn, or we knew their Grandfathers, Uncles, or cousins.
Wade Burck