Monday, February 11, 2008

Assorted Ringling pictures #3


Scan000010830, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

The banner tells the story.
"John" was said to have been led from Madison Sq. Garden to this site by elephant boss George Denman for one of Mr. Fellows photo-ops.
I don't think so.

Posted by Buckles at 2/11/2008 06:28:00 AM

18 comments:

Mike Naughton said...

Buckles,

I have often heard of OLD JOHN being marched from MSG to Somers, New York for this event.

As a New Yorker, even I know that the distance had to be in the neighborhood of 50 miles and most impractical.

The area is now known more for their ultra-exclusive homes and stratospheric real estate prices than the Elephant Hotel.

11 February, 2008 10:47
Anonymous said...

According to Dexter Fellows (in his book - -a detailed account of this publicity stunt), Old John did the march to Somers in April 1922.

The show was playing in the old Garden down on Madison Square. To make it easier on the big guy, boss bull man Denman had leather boots fashioned for his feet. The walk took them past the NY Public Library where Old John took a bow. The first night was spent in a barn in the Bronx and the march was completed the next day.

For the return to the Garden they rented a big truck in which Old John rode.

11 February, 2008 12:32
Mike Naughton said...

This is right in my old backyard...

The GARDEN II was indeed on Madison and 26th in Manhattan and a trip to The Bronx is approximately 12 miles.

The trip from The Bronx to Somers is approximately 38 miles or more.

Since a human can walk about 3 miles an hour, plus the elephant, then stopping for rest and water, this journey just doesn't add up.

Since I was not there I would like to offer the following theory...the truck they used to haul OLD JOHN back to MSG2 was also used to pick him up at the barn in THE BRONX and drop him off a few miles south of Somers for the grand entry into the village.

Remember Mr. Fellows was a PRESS AGENT and not an historian.

Like I said, I wasn't there, if anyone who was there would like to dispute my humble theory please respond.

EXHIBIT B: A pair of leather boots would surely wear out, but it is a nice detail to the story.

...and they lived happily ever after.

Now turn out the lights and go to sleep.

11 February, 2008 13:44
Buckles said...

Solving this enigma and understanding the Monte Carlo selections pale in significance to the back room, Boss Tweed committee that will select the next Democratic nominee for President.

11 February, 2008 14:00
Anonymous said...

Feld is getting involved...

National Publicity Roll-Out...

IT'S GOING TO BE AN
OBAMA-BRATION!

11 February, 2008 14:22
Anonymous said...

i agree that a truck was involved somewhere. when i took sells and gray anna may to the somers hotel in 1964 to pay tribute to old bet, she was loaded into her regular truck, which sat there during festivities "to remind people of the name of the show" and that anna may would leave the ceremony immediately at its conclusion because she would be performing live, under the big top, in less than an hour. (kind of a circus version of 'elvis has left the building')

reminder: dexter fellows was a press agent and his book is merely a long press release, not a historical journal. it contains about as much fact as the average press release of its day.

11 February, 2008 14:34
Buckles said...

Reminds me of the time Smokey Jones asked a California politician how to fight anti-elephant legislation and was told, "How much is it worth to you?"

11 February, 2008 14:35
Anonymous said...

Buckles,
That's funny. And it hasn't change much from the time Smokey asked.
Wade Burck

11 February, 2008 16:29
Anonymous said...

The New York Times reported on the perambulations of the pachyderm in its issues of April 9-12, and 14, 1922. It mistakenly states the pilgrimage was to the grave of Old Bet but Bet's remains originally went a century earlier to Scudder’s American Museum in New York, later acquired by Barnum. Old John, the Times tells us, was named after John L. Sullivan and was the boxing elephant in Forepaugh's show. Now old and rheumatic, she was spending her days in the Ringling yards at Bridgeport. She was to leave the Garden at 2pm in her special shoes and circus officials hoped that she'd reach Bronxville the first night. Throughout, the Times referred to Old John as a he.
Old John arrived at 7pm to stay the night at a stable at 1910 Walton Avenue in the Bronx. On her march from Madison Square Garden she was draped with a banner announcing her destination and wore blue leather shoes that she didn't much care for and were "seldom worn except by the old wagon show elephants which troop from town to town overnight." "Old John" hadn't traveled with the show for many years but on this part of the trip was accompanied by George Denman and "old Dexter Fellowes, who spent the whole afternoon recalling incidents of John's youth." Crowds of kids and cars were reported to throng about the elephant Pied Piper on her Sunday afternoon saunter.
During her Sunday night stay, the stable's old floor collapsed scaring the elephant. On Monday morning Old John began a 17-mile march to the White Plains fairgrounds for an overnight in Agricultural Hall. Monday meanderings took John through Scarsdale and Hart's Corners and Tuesday’s trip to Mt. Kisco would complete about two-thirds of the journey. When the elephant shuffled into town at 5:30pm on the 11th, Old John’s speed was of no concern to the Mt. Kisco traffic police. The third night of the journey was spent at Wesley's garage, parked between a motor truck and an auto. By this point, it was reported John was in charge of Fred Weber and Clarence Taylor.
There are no further reports except about the Somers ceremonies on April 13. Old John arrived the day before and spent the night on the Simeon Brady farm. The Times article on the 14th about the ceremonies, which swelled the hamlet of three hundred to that many cars and 2000 people, provided a corny and unclear account of "Old Pap Fellowes" who "sort of gummed things up" blowing his single tune on an old cornet.
Dick Flint
Baltimore

11 February, 2008 20:36
Anonymous said...

Wow. I'm impressed. Since so many activists complain that elephants in domesticity don't get to walk enough, perhaps the current show management would like to recreate this march. I imagine it's been a while since an elephant paraded up the Boston Post Road through the Bronx.

11 February, 2008 22:32
Anonymous said...

I really don't care what any of you say....Boy, are my feet tired!

Old John


PG

11 February, 2008 23:32
Mike Naughton said...

Regular readers of the hallowed New York Times, myself included, will confirm that "the Old Gray Lady" runs about 1/4 page of CORRECTIONS every day highlighting mistakes, misquotes and general flubs from previous editions. Yes, every day.

Since the MSG2 to Somers article is peppered with errors one must conclude that the entire article must be taken with a grain of salt, or in the case of the elephant a handful of grain.

We are all entitled to our theory and I stand by mine; so let's all be friends and renew our subscriptions to the NYT.

Since my family's roots are minutes from BRONXVILLE, let me share these little known facts:

*Bronxville is next to a spit of land called GUNTHER PARK.

*Bronxville is next to TUCKAHOE, the boyhood home of circus clown Gregory DeSanto.

*Bronxville is within walking distance of CROSS COUNTY SHOPPING CENTER where Circus Vargas played in the late 70's and is the lot where Rex William, Ava and family joined the show.

There was an article in the NYT, recently, the writer was sharing her experiences with moving to the Somers area and she mentioned, with great confidence, that the founder of BARNUM and BAILEY, good ole HACKEY BAILEY was from Somers.
The NYT has proven that they are not a reliable source of circus information.

Buckles Blog, where we DISCUSS, not DEBATE. (WB take note, ha ha)

12 February, 2008 04:37
Anonymous said...

Because it seeks accuracy, the NYT chooses to run its corrections column, many of which are pretty minor corrections. Other papers do not.

You state the NYTs accounts of the walk are "peppered with errors." Please, rattle them off to give some credibility rather than telling readers to just brush aside the numerous accounts. I have seen other records of this multi-day journey to back up its occurrence enough to know that Old John made the walk to Somers.

A major point seemingly forgotten by many is the fact that elephants walked 5-15 miles daily from the time of the Crowninshield elephant until the 1920s/30s if they weren’t on a rail or truck show. Only a few (and Bostock was one in England) would load an elephant in a horse-drawn wagon. And I have seen mention of canvas shoes, also.

There are so many references confusing Hach Bailey and B&B that we'll be fighting that as long as people also believe elephants live to be a 100. That doesn't prove the NYT or any other source is not reliable on other matters. Maybe we should at least be pleased that the new Somers resident felt some pride in associating with the circus. Previous generations of area residents--especially the descendants of the old showmen--avoided mentioning it. Seth Howes (see today's picture of his mausoleum) numerous obits never mentioned the circus because the family didn't want it discussed.

Dick Flint
Baltimore

12 February, 2008 11:58
Anonymous said...

It seems that John was indeed named after Sullivan. In the elephant barn in Baraboo they point out the nails sticking out of the barn roof supports over where John was stable3d to keep him from pulling down the roof.I understand he was a Tuskless male and am surprised that he is mentione3de here on the blog as an old female. Buckles help us out.I would assume the long hike plus urging John on would be pretty tough on old "Deafy"

13 February, 2008 08:58
Buckles said...

JOHN (tuskless male)

1884-90 Adam Forepaugh Circus
(1884 posed as White Elephant "Light of Asia")
(1885 billed as "John L. Sullivan" boxing elephant)
1891-95 Adam Forepaugh Circus
(Owned by Bailey and James E. Cooper)
1896-07 Forepaugh-Sells Circus
1908-18 Ringling Bros. Circus
1919-31 Ringling-Barnum Circus
(Died in Sarasota 1/16/32)

13 February, 2008 09:42
Anonymous said...

As the boxing elephant, John held a "boxing glove" at the end of his trunk, with which he was trained to clobber noted black elephant trainer Eph Thompson. Any takers to re-create that act? The various identifications of John as the Light of Asia, the boxing elephant, etc., are covered in memoirs and letters written by elephant men and ex-troupers and printed in the pages of "Billboard." It's almost a "Forrestt Gump" sort of line of credits.

BTW, there was no Adam Forepaugh circus in 1895, so John was elsewhere that season. Remianing in the Philadelphia quarters as it was being cleared out isn't very likely. The show had been greatly reduced in size for 1894 and he may have been one of the few left in Philadelphia. Bailey didn't do the deal with the Sells brothers until 1896, so his whereabouts is a question. Bailey did supply some stuff for the Forepaugh-Sells menagerie, including six cages, and John was presumably moved to Columbus by that action.

As far as the Times reliability, all tertiary reporting is usually verified in other primary [and if unavailable, secondary] documents by a thorough historian.

13 February, 2008 10:38
Anonymous said...

Old John's walk to Somers.This event really happened,but Old John didnt cover the distance in a single day.
There is an entire chapter in it in one of the books by Norwood,
I think its THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
CIRCUS published around 1929.
I do remember reading that they found a barn for Old John to rest the night on the way there.

13 February, 2008 16:03
Anonymous said...

I remember reading somewhere that Old John's was originally named
"Tiny" at the Liverpool Zoological Gardens in England before Adam Forepaugh brought him to America.

13 February, 2008 16:08

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