Tuesday, March 11, 2008

How about this gentleman! Did he know anything?


Scan000010942, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

Posted by Buckles at 3/11/2008 01:16:00 PM

20 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is there a specific name for this action by the horse, or the positions of his front legs? Thanks.

11 March, 2008 15:16
Anonymous said...

This would be Capt. William Heyer on the horse "YO YO" that he brought to this country, preceeding the saddle bred mare, "Starless Night". He was along with Arthur Konyot an excellent trainer of liberty horses.

11 March, 2008 17:11
Anonymous said...

I agree I heard Capt. Heyer was super. I was able to meet him before he died and have seen some videos & old films. This movement looks to be a spanish high trot

11 March, 2008 18:05
Anonymous said...

Madame Col.,
Thank you for responding to the "question" of what is the specific name for this action. I didn't even "suggest", as I didn't have a clue. Hard to tell sometimes in a still photo, what a "movement" actually is. Using today's generally accepted standard of judging, would he be what's considered, on the vertical. For my own understanding and knowledge.
Thank you,
Wade Burck

11 March, 2008 20:07
Anonymous said...

Wade, Here we go again. Its obvious the horse is doing a fantastic "High Trot" [also called by the "horsey set a Spainish trot] Don't they wish they could do one. What the hell is Vertical, please enlighten me, and for your information its just "one hellava great high trot" and I don't believe we need an alibi lesson to sort it out.What the hell is this Madam Col. bullshit. I will tell you anything you want to know on the subject. I have been an alert participant for over sixty years. When did your Madam Col. meet Mr. Heyer? Unfortunately I like to call a spade a spade even if its on the blog. Especially when I was subject to a lesson in horse trsining finesse in this public forum. Please spare me all the bullshit.

13 March, 2008 17:23
Anonymous said...

From Johnny Harriett, Quote: Unfortunately I like to call a spade a spade even if its on the blog...... Let me get this straight since this is the only blog I have ever participated in. The ongoing discussion blog is taken down for no further reference or comment, my last very subdued comment is not posted yet Mr. Harriott is allowed to continue on in a tirade. Why not put it back up Buckles and let's do what John Harriett does and "call a spade a spade". I never said one bad word about Johnny only commented that I had heard he was an excellent Liberty Horse trainer yet he felt it necessary to attack. He stated training methods that he thought were correct and I stated what I believed was correct, I thought that was the point of the discussion. By the way I met Capt. Heyer in the 60's at a circus I was working with John Cuneo's Horse Fantasy Review was able to meet and talk horses and met his very handsome son whom I believe chose aviation as a career. I really need to be able to respond to accusations that what I am saying in not true. Come on Buckles put the now deceased discussion blog back up (I know you must have it backed up) and let everyone join in. I guess if this is not posted than only John Harriett is allowed to continue Slightly one sided I would say and I thought this was a history about circus. By the way John, I have had Spanish trots for years maybe I should upload my pictures.

13 March, 2008 21:01
Anonymous said...

I do not beieve that I mentioned any training methods. How the horse performs and how it is trained are two very separate functions and I assume you would agree that each horse is different, so that an exact training regimen is not that easy to follow. Now, over the years in training I have not had any "great" horses and certainly alot that were mediocre or less and most were trained for elementary "menage" or for someone else. As a novice student of the history of the Equestrian Arts it is rare that any trainer would have more than two or three that he would rceive alot of recognition for. With Heyer it would be YoYo and Starless Night. With Dorita it would be a horse I believe named Katan and then her Bouncing Bomber and so on. But each horse that is trained also teaches the trainer a little extra. I have found that to be true in all the animals I have trained and worked with. Also with circuses we replace other trainers and presenters and take over already trained horses,etc. some good, some not so good, but again a great learning curve by picking their brain. I have worked horses trained by Bert Wallace, Merrit Belue and others, including my father, John Smith and others. From Rinling on down this has been the case. I do have a great respect for those that have been before me and that it has been passed down in the training ring this old school knowledge and I have been a fortunate resiprecent and part of that wonderful fraternity. That is why I may take offense and of course express a strong opinion. From your video I see your presentation is excellent in scope and does show extensive training time and ability.

14 March, 2008 08:49
Anonymous said...

John Milton,
Now that 2 of the 3 major players in this "debate" have been allowed to respond, let see if the 3rd can also have a final word.
The first question was "is there a specific name for this action by the horse, or the position of his front legs"?
You responded to the question of "what is it", with the names of trainers and horses?
Madame Col, responded by agreeing with you about the trainer, and answered the original question with Spanish high trot.
I responded, by thanking her for "answering the question" and asking "another question" about the horse's face for my continuing education.
You responded, by saying it is a "fantastic high trot", not a "Spanish high trot"(what the hell), because only some call it a "Spanish trot". No they don't, John. They call a Spanish high trot just that, and a Spanish trot just that. They are different movements.
Why did you not answer the original question? Why did you wait until it was answered, to then say it was answered "wrong"?
Your respect and admiration for the "old school", and the trainers is obvious, and has never been questioned. It is your just as obvious distain for the "new school", and the trainers, that is questioned. Thanks for the encouragement, Col. John Milton Herriott.
Respectfully,
Wade Burck

14 March, 2008 09:53
Anonymous said...

There is only one school of horse training that is fundamental as yo bits, spurs, saddles, etc. handed down over hundreds of years. We do know the Spainish style to be more severe with Bits, spurs, saddles,etc. I guess do to the bull fighting element, ala Roberto VasConcellos and others. In his book Arthur Konyot relates of his time in Spain and of Spainish-Portugese horses and some of that adaptation that served him and his family well. However I believe my schooling would have been more Middle European with a lighter school as opposed to the other. I have seen some bits to be so cruel in the horses mouth that I can't imagine someone using them. I have seen Albert ride with both a Weymouth and a Pelham and I have done the same with various types of either, However I have found if you have excellent use of your hands in feeling that the Weymouth is better for an accomplished rider and note that in his book, James Fillis, the only book I have found to be understanding, along with a book by Padjousky [spainish riding school] that Fillis would go to the double bit early in the stages after being accostumed to a snaffle as something in its mouth. It makes all these aids, such as, tie downs, running martingales totally unnessity if the rider-trainer has good use of their hands. I have enjoyed High School-Menage horse training and showing over the years, but again the evolution of horsemanship has not gone from an old school to a New School. Just as you cannot re-invent the wheel, but you can certainly enhance on it. Yes, I suppose soom elements of extreme cruelty have been fazed out for the better as it should be with all humans and animals.

14 March, 2008 10:55
Anonymous said...

Recorded for history is John Milton's claim to a "Middle European" style, which I assume would include, knights jousting. As opposed to an "American" style. Encompassing both Minnesota and Florida. Why does everybody appear to be trying to distance themselves from an "American" style?
Wade Burck

14 March, 2008 11:56
klsdad said...

klsdad..here..

To answer Wade Burck's..
"Why does everybody appear
to be distancing themselves from an "America" style?"

Answer:

Perhaps there isn't one!!

klsdad

14 March, 2008 15:12
Anonymous said...

Wade....I am not trying to distance myself from the "American Style"....Every day I lead my "Worlds smallest Horse" into the tent....put Mark in the ticket box and Collect Euro's, Peso's Dollars or any other currency....Correct me if I'm wrong...I think the "Style" is called "Capitalism"....Sincerely Jim Zajicek (Horseman)

14 March, 2008 15:21
Anonymous said...

Klsdad and Mr. Zajicek,
......That is what Mr. Burck has been staying all along......There isnt an American or European style.....Only individual styles.......

21 Century Circus Animal History

14 March, 2008 16:18
Anonymous said...

Wade, you are quite right in your question about an "American Style" and certainly me being 100 % American would agree with you. I meant to remark that my style would be closer to middle Europe, but ncertainly would be the evolution from Americans, John O;Brien, Rhodya Royal, Johnny Agee, Merrit Bealue, Austin King and others, but the influence of Konyot, Schumann, Heyer and others after the turn of the century would change that forever. So it all melded together and we are better off because of it. Glenn Randall would not be the great trainer he was without the influence of Adolf Delbosq in his life. I also was also to have Adolf and Mr. Cristianson to be part of my influence. As I said I was able to put the best, for me, of both worlds for the years of my career and would not minimize the influence of either.

14 March, 2008 17:16
Anonymous said...

Mr.Anonymous, Really?... Col Herriot...My Style would be greatly infuenced by P.T. Barnum and Nate Eagles...But then I met Ward Hall and Dick Garden...Which gave me the Skills to consume Hot Chocolate in Hell..With out breaking a Sweat..thus making me impervious to "HEAT".....I feel I am all the better for it...Sincerely Jim Zajicek (Fellow Horseman)

14 March, 2008 17:42
Tammy said...

I would like an explaination on the comment Did he know anything? I hope this is just a typo. I do believe my grandfather new quite alot and he was a wonderful man! As for Madam Col. you must have met him because you spoke of my uncle who did become an air traffic controller, he also had a daughter, Christina, My mom she was a ballerina like my grandmother.

05 August, 2009 20:17
Buckles said...

Rest assured the statement was made in jest.
His was in a class of his own.

05 August, 2009 21:30
Chic Silber said...

Never had the Spanish Trots

but had several cases of the

Mexican Trots over the years

05 August, 2009 21:50
Wade G. Burck said...

Tammy,
You started reading in the middle of the book. That often happens on a blog. You need to read from the first page to clear up any misunderstandings.
Wade Burck

05 August, 2009 21:52
attafox said...

I came to this late as I am searching for information on Arthur Konyot and Saddlebreds specifically, but ...

The horse is not trotting in this photo. Note that there is only one foot on the ground. This is indicative of a canter. The high foreleg could be (since it is a moment in time) of the horse doing "tempis" or lead changes ever few strides, or even every stride ... at which point it looks like the horse is skipping. Used in both classical and high schooled dressage.

14 December, 2020 15:18

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