The third (March) program of its annual winter show in Munich this |
Monday, April 21, 2008
From Richard Flint
Posted by Buckles at 4/21/2008 12:50:00 PM
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The third (March) program of its annual winter show in Munich this |
Posted by Buckles at 4/21/2008 12:50:00 PM
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38 comments:
Dick,
You are 100% correct. The picture here has over 2 1/2 of specially prepared mix of shavings/dirt, and a dust free compound. On tour the "flooring" is put in trucks and transported to the next date in order not to disturb the fine mixture. It is called care, concern, and compassion. Possibly why they are miles ahead of American circus's when it comes to equine pursuits. Kind of like us trying to get to the moon with a hang glider. Granted not as "pretty" as a ring mat that matches the Potentates underwear, but quite "effective", none the less. Forget music, just the chance to watch that well know lady ride/school is worth twice the ticket price.
Wade Burck
With Big Apple Circus, an envelope of dirt would be Fed Exed from the towns to be played which would then be pinched, prodded, smelled and even tasted to make sure it measured up to the requirements needed for their equestrian arts.
After the crew would fill the ring with dirt and a layer of sawdust, Katja would let in the horses to kick up some dust, while she hosed it down. I think the horses are likely more comfortable on a soft floor, rather than running along thin rubber mats, but they don't seem to complain. (I wonder if it's hard on their legs and joints?)I also still wonder why Ringling won't fill a ring (at least on the Gold unit) with some dirt and sawdust, eventhough they did it for nearly 100 years before they moved into the big arenas? Col. Herriot--Does a coconut mat work like the sawdust ring, or is it comparable to the rubber mats? I had no idea Anja Beran had any interest in the circus--I am buying her new book on classical dressage ASAP! :)
-Chris
Chris,
Because she instructs Jana Mandana Lacy, and covered the show while Yana was recovering from childbirth, should we assume an interest in the circus? By all means buy her book. What she does have an interest in, and extensive knowledge of, is Baroque horses. You need to ask John Cuneo about coco mats. Better yet, ask the guy's who used to set them for the Hawthorn Horse Fantasy. They probably have a different version. It is superior to thin rubber, celotex, ring mats/carpet, but not even close to a natural surface of dirt and sawdust. Which is the best thing next to the new arena footings now available.
Wade Burck
Wade Burck
If she does Classical Dressage she would not be doing or training that "march" [spainish walk] and other movements of the Haute Ecole, Or High School. We have all ridden on Homosote or Celotex and it is not great, but O.K. Wehave all done it. In Rome you have to do as the RomaNSW dO. cUNEOS cOcO WAS SLIPPERY AND i SAW A hIGH sCHOOL rIDER IN pARIS AND Medrano and De Hiver slip on the CoCo. One of them was the Schlicter Sisters, who also did Rosinback riding.
A friend of mine who is a farrier did the feet for a liberty act at the Big E a few years back, said all the horses had foot problems from running or being stalled on hard surfaces. Don't know if this is a common problem, Ringling's horses (in the day when Ringling actually owned horses)always looked pretty good to my less educated eyes
HM
Its getting a little heavy Wade. I believe we have some of the finest equestrian events in the world here in the good old USA. If we are so bad why don't you " pack up your sack of Bull Durham in that empty cigar box" and get your ass across the water where you will be appreciated.
To my friend Dick Flint. BULLSHIT. You have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to circus history.
Johnny,
What the hell did you just say? The part about the lady rider I got, and she probably threw the Spanish walk in the day before opening on Krone. She is that good.
Wade Burck
I remember every year the show played Dallas and Tommy Henry was ringstock boss, he would get me to work on a few of the shows horses feet.Quite a few years later I was visiting Roy and Cindy Wells and they took me around and showed me all the problems some of the horses had. Last summer I hooked up with the Farrier that shoes and trims for the Blue Unit and I watched him as he worked on the show horses. I thought WOW what a gig! He got airfare, hotel and meals plus quite a bit more than I charge and did very little work! I remember working with Doc Henderson and we would do all the horse in WQTS! I was getting about a dollar ahead back then I'd bet! I did have a good time with Doc tho!
John,
And just who in the hell would instruct Madame Col. Olds Rossi? YOU!!! You'd have her schooling in a split tree McLellan calvary saddle because it was good enough for Col. Zebullon Pike. It would sore that Red Fresian in 10 minutes.
Wade Burck
John,
Wait a minute. Is that what you mean by "pontificating?"
Wade Burck
Buckles,
This is Classic. Don't choke us down. Run em through. LOL
Wade Burck
You Go Col.!!! Wade said my mini can't cut it here...I'm Ready to " pack up my sack of Bull Durham in that empty cigar box" and get my ass across the water where I can start earnin dem EURO'S..(now worth a $1.3170)Your advice is much appreciated. Thanks Col. ...Jim Zajicek P.S. Should I land at Normandy (like the good ole days) Col.?
The post on Anja Beran proves my point all along. The footing looks amazing and all that was said in the difficulty of showing a premier trained horse is true. The difficulty of keeping that horse fresh, beautiful and alive with a couple performances a day and for months is hugely demanding. Those who do not care end up riding their horses down and soon they are robots and the act loses it's luster. Can it be done? Of course if someone cared enough and it seems that Europe is the only place they do care. I am an American and love my country bit I pine for someone to care for performance excellence giving the tools necessary for such excellence but alas I see that not coming.
Dick, Dick,
Up here!!! I'm in the loft. Look out!!!! Don't get hit in the eye with that crop. Lure him over here!!! I'll drop this hay bale on him.
Then I'll remind that Tommy Hannaford with something like 8 generations, is was a blue blooded as you can get. So yeah, you have so trained for royalty.
Wade Burck
Col. ..I'm confused...I thought you said all the camel-necked wall-eyed broncs were in the Rodeo? ridden by tanked up Cowboys on double-doubles of Jim Beam?....Doesnt matter, change of plans....Forget Normandy! Mini's Loaded, headin straight for Berlin! Are ya with me Col.? Gonna bring down that European Horse World with "Good ole Yankee ingenuity" (Line our pockets with Euro's too!) And unlike those Hulligans...When we're Done..We aint stayin!...Headin back to U.S of A!!! Uh..Ready Col.? Jim Zajicek
Whoa, Johnny!!! My posting is QUOTING Anja Beran’s comments from her own website. After some background info, I then stated “Her website further explains…” and directly quote her own opinions about working on Krone. Finally, I posed a QUESTION about the working conditions of a ring. That’s all!
Dick Flint
Baltimore
How in hell could she "at any time" have 40 stallions in her barn in training. Note that she just started in 2002. She must be pretty fast to assemble such a resume. I note that Dianne Rossi said that the 70 some foot circle t the Dinner show was too confining for her horses and now she lauds the performance in a 42 ft. ring, or slightly larger. I appreciate that in Europe they have a nice dirt ring, but will fall back to CoCo if the need arises. Anumber of my European friends of a few years back noted that in Europe on set up day it wa "all hands for performers to come in, spread the dirt, rake it down, sawdust, etc." Of course then they all had to "usher" on the come in. Punchy Forbes saw that when owning CBCB on a trip to Europre a number of years ago and it still is a demeaning pain in the ass for the performers. So much for the European influence. I will stick with Hoxie Bros.
PS. If she didn't like doing 2 a day and the ring was too small what was she doing there. I am sure MRS. Sembach could have found another circus horse act. I assume She Got PAID.
The beautiful dancer in gown dancing with the High School horse and rider has been done both here and abroad with a Male rider in saddle. Inga Smaha did it with Tony a number of years ago. Edith Gautier Beketow did it on Mills Bros. with her husband Count Beketow. Adolf and Clara Delbosq did it with Serenado on long lines. I do not see the connection in the photo of female and female and the dancers wardrobe does not give the top hat tails effect with elaborately gowned ballroom dancer and the rider being in "drag". Quite an interesting effect. I suppose the fitting music would give a better understanding.
There was a fine gentleman who trained and owned A number of Grand Prioux Dressage horses over the years and had his own stable up in Michigan. His name was Chuck Grant and he passed away a few years back. He was a friend that I met during my years showing in Detroit and elswhere and was complimentary to me and my horsemanship. He was a great fan of The Konyots, Heyer, Rudynoff, Smaha, etc.
He had some six or seven Grand Prioux horses with riders that he actually "booked out" for a fee at various Dressage shows around the country where the area did not have any higher level horses to be competive. I even saw his horses here at a show in Sarasota a few years back. They were of variousw breeds. I recall one Arab. Were they that great. I don't know, but they did all the stuff and were quite impressive and he was widely recognized and a real gentleman to be sure. He rode daily at age 72 and said he rode six horses each day in training. That was his limit. I can't imagine a trainer training 40 stallions. So we have had dressage trainers here in America and they were male as well. How about that?
I believe Mr. Grant was enamoured with Dorita Konyot in their early years and knowing Dorita back some 55 plus years ago. I can well understand why. When she entered in her beautiful Spainish gown and mantea to the stirring strains of "Lady of Spain" was just great and the finale hight trot to the "Toreador" from Carmen was the cake. I trouped with her at the time as my father had the liberty horses presented by him, myself and John Smith. She was always a very nice person.
Johnny,
The 70 ft. ring is too small, and Madame Col. did not laud the performance in a 40 footer per se, she "appreciated" that she was able to do it for, and this is important, a short time. Most people will drive their Ford in bad traffic, but leave the Lamborgini at home. If you only have a valuable Lamborgini, you don't drive that much.
The gig was 1 month, & was done as a favor as stated. Possibly she didn't get paid, or much. 40 stallions in your barn is not many for a great trainer, I know quite a few her who have twice that many.
If the rider is a women, and the date is short, and one time, and one time only, you use her, and a girl on the ground. I act is about the dancer and the horse. Sure if you have a male rider, you can do the "flirt" thing. But that's been done to death, and we know how you feel about that.
Wade Burck
Johnny,
It's Prix. Chuck was a very good trainer, and he sure liked wild west/trick riding. I met him in 1987, when he brought me to his Shine-A-Bit farm to show him how to school piaffes. Sit down, I'm just kidding. I did met him in 87 that parts true, through Jim Lowe, a former student of Mr. Grants, who went on to have a great career in the Arabian Show industry, in Calif. and Colo. Chuck preferred stallions, but admitted there were some great mares, in the saddle and under it. Scotch-A-Girl was one, and she was a quarter horse, so you would have liked her for "quarter horse riding." Sweet Anita, was a thoroughbred mare, who some would describe as a camel necked, walleyed bronc. But Chuck did well with her.
Wade Burck
A trainer with 40 or more horses in his barn, or her barn for individual training by the "great trainer" is certainly not doing justice to the horses owners and in fact it is impossible, Come on Wade who do you know that is training 40 plus horses at the same time and you spin about flirting and only a short time thing. I would agree that her horse is no doubt good, but the rest of it is BS. I would not be surprised that one of the great dressage trainers in Europe, of which there are very few that can "train it all" trained the horse she is riding. We have dressage riders here who claim to be trainers that have a trained horse they bought in Europe ande show it and themselves off, when they could not break an egg. One of them resides right here in Sarasota.
Correct I didn't laud the performance of Anja in a 40 ft ring and since I am only looking at a photo of a very beautiful horse and rider I wouldn't assume to criticize or applaud, only comment on a beautiful picture. I was amazed she did it and I am sure when it was over she spent time schooling her horse out of the imperfections she would have gained by doing it.
Yes Johnny, it was extremely difficult to show for two and half years in a less than 70 ft ring especially for a heavy 17 hand stallion. It was a tremendous job to correct all the circle errors and get the horse going straight again. By the way the two liberty horse I used in the same 70 ft arena became sore, results from roundy, roundy and we had sand. I would hate to think of doing the same on homosote.
I did do homosote on the Lipizzan Show for two years and we were able to go straight there. My Andalusian came off that show completely lame. I learned the hard way.
I also know Chuck Grant and he was a wonderful man. I was never able to see him ride but was able to read his book and know from his students one in particular, Tom Reed of his knowledge. Tom is currently and has been for years a trainer at Medieval Times handling the Andalusians. Chuck always was very gracious with his compliments to younger riders. I have a very cherished letter he wrote just before he died saying how much he enjoyed my horses when he saw me perform
The Col. wrote "Anumber of my European friends of a few years back noted that in Europe on set up day it wa "all hands for performers to come in, spread the dirt, rake it down, sawdust, etc." Of course then they all had to "usher" on the come in."Col., Does that Mean its Wrong to have Family members to "Man" Novelty joints and Butch Floss in the seats between performing their acts on American Circuses???? Sincerely Jim Zajicek (trying to get it Right, after all these years)
Johnny,
The circus mentality that an animal has to be drilled day in and day out, like an aerialist or juggler who understands why they have to, is normally based on boredom/nothing else to do,I getting paid so I better so something, or to prove you are good, because you are working for hours and hours. I have never, ever, heard a trainer from any other field, equine or otherwise, use "training quick", as an example of proficiency. I would suggest that is why it has dropped in the circus to what it once was, and why the real talent is gone. Again, it would probably take me a week to get a X-14 into the sky, and Chuck Yeager can do it in 3 1/2 minutes. Does that mean I am a better pilot, because I stayed in the cockpit for 168 hours trying to get airborne!!!!! The better you are the less time you spend working on individuals, and move on to the next. In the "day" Lasma farms used to school 75 to 80 Arabs a day with two trainers getting the message across in 20-30 mins. handing it off to a groom for hot walking and bathing, taking the reins from an assistant of a new horse that had been warmed up, much like an assemble line, day starting at 5:00AM and ending at 7:00. Every person in this well oiled machine had a job. Some tacked, some clipped, some bitted up/warmed up, assistants schooled, and the trainer rode. Then the process was reversed and some washed, while other horses made ready. If you are schooling more then 30 mins on one thing, you are going backwards, and the horse will resent it terribly.
Wade Burck
I would also like to get off the subject, but then I find that I am instructed in the art of horsemanship after being in the trenches for over sixty years and have credentials in this field with every major American Circus plus plus. This off the wall stable that Wade refers to that trains [and I use that term loosely] some eighty horses daily, or as he says, schools them. In what; walk, trot and cantor? Come on, get off the BS. I amreferring to the, as you suggest the complete training of High School or Dressage.
Diane; All circus horses run in a circle and around a oval hippodrome track and I have worked , as a twenty yr. old person, horses that were all older than me, and were all sound. My wife rode a Circus Williams completely trained Lippizaner about 27 yrs. old. I have never heard of any circus horse being retired because of stressful leg problems from running or performing. Generally they retire because the show went broke. Please no more excuses. Excuses legit. or fabricated do not get the job done.
Your observation about training time in regard to circus training and that we don't know what we are doing, coming from a person who has never trained or even ridden a sophisticated High School horse, and seems to be a disciple of Miss Olds-Rossi and something to do with training of Ar4ab horses, who happen to be the worst candidates for High School or Dressage. I can't believe you would be so bold in addressing issues that you do not know the first thing about. I refuse to comment on the subject any longer and wish you and the other person well. I note no comments on the recent John Herriott liberty photos. I am sure you will use some snide remarks to overcome [or spin] your i8gnorance on the subject. Good luck on your insistance to be recognized for whatever suits you at the moment. I admire you and others who, say are North Dakota boys that made good. I am quite humble on my successes in the field, which are many, and am surprised that you show no humility at all, and belkieve it or not, did not invent the wheel and certainly are not the "second Coming".
Col. with all due respect....Apprently in your 60+ years of trouping you have never sat on a Sideshow ticket box....Excuses legit. or fabricated do get the job done. In Fact it is our "Modus Operandi"...Sincerely Jim Zajicek
Johnny, I also am going to say this last thing about high-school horses. The last real high school horse I saw in the circus was Voscancello (sorry can't spell his name). The high school horses of that era and the way I was schooled were bold and exciting horses not the laid back horses that are seen today. A very good strong high school horse could not stand the rigors of today's ground. Yes, the manage horses that do a little of this, a little of that do hold up well, they are taking care of themselves and the riders know no difference. Since I think you know only of those circus high school horses they are not what I am talking about, but huge moving exciting horses that give everything they've got in a 5 minute performance. These horses are so trained that each movement is controlled and at the exact timing to the music will change into another movement. I think I am wasting my time and since you believe you have seen it all, you cannot possibly know that which I speak. Why not we just agree to disagree because I have seen the horses which you speak and they are not the same. If you have never heard of a circus horse being retired because of lameness then you live in a very special world and wish I had been there. When you are riding a high powered Andalusian pounding on hard homosote over cement day after day something is going to give sooner or later. I guess you had better luck than me.
By the way I have had some notoriously good Arabian high school horses, although they didn't move as big, the certainly were a beautiful thing to see.
Mr. Herriott,
Some time ago I came to your defense on this blog with not so much as a nod or thank you from you. I have appreciated your work since the first time I saw you at Circus World decades ago and the last time at the Great Circus Parade in Milwaukee. While my time riding on the Texas White Horse Troupe and Lipizzan shows was mere minutes compared to the lifetime of commitment from you and others here, I can still appreciate a good trainer and horse when I see one. It seems to me your hostile rantings on the blog are coming from a deep feeling that your expertise has not been appreciated or acknowledged. But, to say that you are humble about your successes? Excuse me? You must be double jointed from patting yourself on the back so much. Why can't we just agree that people have different opinions and having a different opinion does not make either person wrong, just different. If we all agreed on everything and did everything exactly the same way, there would be no reason to perform or compete. So please, sit back, relax, and try to enjoy life. Your contribution to the entertainment world is greatly appreciated.
Jeannie
John,
Where do I suggest "the complete training of high school or dressage?"
You are the one who always seems to decide that. You have suggest many times in the past you are not a trainer unless you start it from "scratch" in reference to tiger training or elephant training. I suggest if that is the case, nobody is a horse trainer unless they find the horse, float his teeth, put a bit in his mouth for the first time, and ride him to his Prix St. George.
May be we need you to define for us what a "complete" high school act is, or what type of training? Conditioning, correction, show prepping,training to be a herd sire, etc. etc. Then we can judge it against statements like this:
At any
one time she has about 40 stallions there for training from Germany
and abroad
You Can't make a living training one or two or maybe even three horses. There is not 3/4 of the trainers, the sucessful ones, that don't have any where from 35 to 40 horses in their string at the nationals. I was referencing back in the day, as you often do. Only I go back to 1980, the peak of the Arabian industry.
How old was the 27 year old Lipizzan when it arrived here, and how long was it used? Why do we have to go clear back to the Vosconcellos, the Konyots, the Heyers to show examples, of what is being done right now today in the European circus? There is no standard, no competing against peer? Only individuals deciding who or what is good. Based on what "they" think is good. Show me a standard, and not an opinion, John.
Comment on the liberty photos? You know they will get axed. Plus what's to comment on? That you did a liberty act on Ringling in the 70's? Hell John, I was still in high school, and hadn't seen GGW yet, so I didn't know what I wanted to be. Bs, Spin, pontificate, and now humble. I think we need to redefine those words. The meanings have apparently been lost. What "boys" are you talking about from North Dakota? Just because Minnesota has a football team, and we don't, doesn't make you shit. And before Madame Col. got sidetracked with those Baroque deals, she sure knew what a great horse was with the Arabians. Plus I have not seen one Arab in the circus, that even comes remotely close to what you see at the nationals, or what is really an Arabian" And theres over a thousand to choose from. But that's not in Europe, John. A lot of what they use for liberty horses over there, would compete very here well at a Reserve Halter.
Don't back out yet, John. I really am interested in what a complete high school act is?
Wade Burck
That you would suggest that VanConcellos epitimizes the art of Haute Ecole or Highy School is unbelievable. The art of Bull Fighting is obvious a very cruel sport and when the Bull fighter is on horseback makes it even more cruel and the injuries to the horses and the spurring and jerking of the rider are not very humane and this is the credentials of the Count. People I was with on Ringling who were there during the saga of the Count and had no bone to pick and were in the production personnel dept. relate that he showed no mercy in riding, had extreme temperment ande his horses would leave the tent with bloody sides and after the act in the back door area he would continue his tirades to a horse foaming with sweat. It is docunmented that in Madison square garden a fight of enormous proportions broke out between Arthur Konyot and the Count, with one of them going to jail. So much for the Count.
Now, yes I have seen it all, so to speak, in my time starting as a youth with a horse trainer father and believe I would pre-date you in my professional circus horse awareness as I recaqll when I was already recognized in the field that you brought yourself and horses to Dorita for lessons and at the time non of us circus horse people were aware of you.
Now Mr. Heyer is recognized by everyone in the field of High School riding and training for two generations that I am aware of tobe, with Starless Night, the finest High School horse of those times and his horse YoYo preceeded that. Yes, I did work on shows with Mr. Heyer on a couple occasions and saw him at county fairs where they appeared. He was the opposite of the Count in every way and everyone always remarked that his cues were invisible and he and the horse performed as one. He was so highly recognized in the field by his peers that there was no envy or jealousy. He was that good. He treated his horse as a horse and never made a big deal about where, what or whatever. I am not a judge or jury, but just telling it like it was, and as a young man, he, Clyde Beatty, Jack Joyce, Robert Baudy and my father were my idols, along with the great Cristiani Family. It did not get any better than that. I must include Jorgen Cristiansen and Adolf Delbosq as well and I was quite close with both of them.
John,
My other posts didn't go through(you know where you can read them if you would like), so I will try again, as you have segued into a new subject.
To get it straight, you have slammed the rodeo industy, the dressage industy, the dancing horse industy, European Circus Elephant and horse training, and now the bull fighing industy, in a effort to be humble, and non pontificating. I quess the quote, "damn everything but the circus(the American circus, I assume)" is the 11th commandment that Charleton Heston/Moses scratched of the tablets, and not all of us were aware of it until Rev. Herriott pointed it out.
And now you state the manner in which "YOU" were "TOLD" Vosconcello trained his horses!!!! And it is allowed to be printed!!!
"I" have been "TOLD" some horrendous stories about Hugh Schmidtt, and others and the ring building in Venice. Terrible stories, about baby elephants going in, the doors being closed, a half hour off terrible screams and trumpeting, and then the doors coming open, and a cut blood covered elephant coming out skipping. None of those people had a bone to pick, and were also from varios departments, and PUBLIC. I have asked you and your obvious learned knowledge after 60 years in the trenches about the "paralyzed trunks" you always mention, and you will not address it. Your hypocrisies are truly monumental, and I guess if this doesn't run, it's not a "one man deal."
You didn't know who Madame Col. Dianne Olds Rossi was when she started!!! No shit, John. That's insighful. Not to burst your humble bubble John Milton, but if you walked out of your little tiny little world of "horse training", even after "60 years in the trenches" they would not have a clue who you were. Why have you not been confident enough to hang your paper, any place but in your back yard? Probably the same reason I consider myself a pretty fair tennis player, but I sure am not going to challenge John McEnroe.
I asked you in the last post how old the horse that Mary Ruth rode from Circus Williams was when it came here, and how old when it retired. Also, in your opinion what is a "complete" high school act. And why is it that when we preface great circus high school training we have to to all the way back to the Konyots, the Heyers etc., etc. We can go to the European circus for modern examples today, why can't we find the same modern examples in the American circus. Oh that's right, they went broke.
Wade Burck
We all agree on Capt. Heyer, so no comment.
I commented on Count VanConcellos because I saw a super performance doing an incredible trick on a hard floor, one I had never seen. I commented nothing on his training methods, as that was not my intent. I was commenting on high powered performances. I do believe though that it not necessary to due damage to a man's name when he is not here to defend it.
Then you bring in bullfighting, how did we get there?
Another thing was of course you never heard of me when I started, you are circus I was not and like Anja I did a few circus jobs. I got interested in circus because that's where the great's I know of came from.. What is your problem here? Aren't we talking horse training?
Come on Johnny, cool out.
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