 Perspective from the past:I would like to add a little perspective to the current debate aboutthe prices of souvenirs and the content of the recent editions of theRingling-Barnum show. Any circus historian who has spent theconsiderable time necessary to read through the principal circus tradepapers (the New York Clipper for the 19th century and Billboard formore than the first half of the 20th century) will know that therehave always been complaints about changes in the circus business.Whether it was the loss of the singing clown in the late 19th centuryor how John Ringling North made the GSOE into a Broadway show in theearly 1940s, there has been criticism. I can remember as a youngcircus fan in the early 1960s how some older fans still loathed theintroduction of a singing ringmaster. Yet recently, those of us whoknew nothing else other than singing ringmasters mourned the passingof Harold Ronk.I recently spent some time on this year's red unit where programs sellfor $12 and include a blinking clown nose. The booklets are 64 pages,all color, and no advertising (hence, no additional revenue for theshow). In the 19th century, circus programs were free but consistedof only four pages listing the displays and containing many localadvertisements. The first circus program ever sold was the 1901Forepaugh-Sells book of forty pages priced at five cents but it alsoincluded national advertising and was raised to ten cents in 1907.When Barnum & Bailey returned from Europe in 1903, they began tocharge the higher ten cents for their program that had the same format(I've attached a scan of my copy of the 1903 cover showing the price).So how does that compare to today's dollar? As a practicingprofessional historian with the usual advance degrees, etc., I cantell you that determining the relative value of an amount of money inone year compared to another is more complicated than it seems atfirst. There is no single "correct" measure, and economic historiansuse one or more different series (such as the Consumer Price Index orCPI) depending on the context of the question. Such comparisons, forexample, may be critical to determine appropriate levels ofcompensation in a legal case that has been deferred for a number ofyears.The Unskilled Wage Rate is good way to determine the relative cost ofsomething in terms of the amount of work it would take to produce, orthe relative time it would take to earn its cost. Since the debate onBuckles' blog about concession prices relates to how expensive itmight be for a family, this is a good measure to use.So how much would the price that James A. Bailey and his staff placedon their 1903 program be in terms of today's Unskilled Wage Rate? Itwould be priced at $10.21 but Mr. Bailey also had the income of themany pages of national advertising whereas Mr. Feld chooses to delivermore content and a blinking clown nose.Interestingly, a 50-cent admission ticket to Barnum & Bailey in 1903would be $51.04 in today's terms using the same comparison. And thestandard one dollar theatre ticket of the same era would be twicethat, close to what it is today for a family member to get a seat at aBroadway show!Dick FlintBaltimore  |
Wednesday, April 18, 2007
From Richard Flint
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49 comments:
From Eric:
I would gladly pay $51.00 to see a circus that offered the equivalent of the 1903 Barnum & Bailey performance.
My beef is selling all this really worthless junk at the expence of putting on a good circus. Non of this money is going for paying for wardrobe, animals, performers, etc. Just what the public is supposed to be paying for when they go to the circus. Especially one billed as the GSOE. Kind of like robbing the rich and not paying the poor performers who have to make do with what is stuffed up their
Mr. Flint:
For the record, I have the "usual advanced degrees" also.
Let's talk Circus with a Capital "C"...
I've seen the RBBB program as high as $18.00. The $50.00 (approx.) ticket would be a bargain in today's marketplace for a front row seat. FELD is charging $60-75. for the lower rows and greedy-grabbing $156.00 for front row in MSG-NYC.
If the talent/performer/quantity of world-class acts were at the same level as in the Irvin Feld era, then I would be a very satisfied customer.
Today's shows are water-downed! Resorting to a cheap and tawdry theatrical gimmick of shooting a dumpster-load of confetti into the audience to bring the audience to a frenzy USED TO BE ACCOMPLISHED by a powerful production number, with great music, costumes that dazzled, and an arena floor crowded with animals and performers. I remember, very fondly, when the spec stopped: all performer and animals FROZEN in place, lights BUMPED UP, and the music STOPPED. There was a split-second moment of silence, the audience was stunned and then the audience erupted into long-lasting round of grateful applause.
That doesn't happen anymore. Today we need confetti, those little bits of paper floating down on the kiddies' head to make them jump about and squeal. Give me a friggin break. Give me a real CIRCUS SPEC!
Look through that old program book of yours and see if you find a display that features ONLY ONE PERFORMER: a rather unattractive, flaming red-haired lady with two doves and a pussy cat WORKING ALONE! (The act is well trained and well presented, but doesn't belong as a solo in the GSOE.) I'm glad it is gone.
If you do find a solo cat woman display, it is obvious that those folks in the audience were paying too much for their tickets, too.
Hey, let's go to the circus together, I'll stop by the ATM and get a couple of hundred dollars and I'll even buy you a popcorn.
I love a good circus, I am not against moving forward, but I DO NOT LIKE GETTING RIPPED-OFF.
Mr. Flint, I for one, think the facts as you have stated them are correct. As I don't have any "advanced degrees", and I have been told numerous times over the years, that what I do is considered "unskilled labor", would you do me a favor, and figure out what a wild animal trainer, who was paid $1500.00 per week, in 1993 at retirement, would be worth today. Thank you. WadeBurck
And I’d like to see the 1903 show, also, at most any price! But, my point was the cost of one specific souvenir, the program, whose price we can chart over time. It is, today, virtually the same price. As to the ticket price, my point was that it was not cheap in 1903 for the working family to attend a big circus.
As I first stated, determining the relative value of an amount of money in one year compared to another is more complicated than it seems at first. There is no single "correct" measure. For the impact of the cost on a family, I used the Unskilled Wage Rate because it is good way to determine the relative cost of something in terms of the amount of work it would take to produce, or the relative time it would take for a working person to earn its cost.
For computing the cost of putting the GSOE on the road in 1903 versus today, one must use a different measure such as the relative share of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). That would make the cost of operating the GSOE about $239.07 per ticket assuming the 1903 ticket price enabled Bailey to pay the cost of operations and a fair profit (and 1903 was not a great year for B&B as expenses were high what with many new parade wagons such as the Two Hemispheres, the four continent wagons, etc.)
The point is, it is hard to make comparisons. Times change and that is called history.
Dick Flint
Baltimore
For Wade Burck,
Your $1500 weekly in 1993 works out to $2,180.91 using the unskilled wage method but this would be in 2005 as I the formula is not yet available to carry to this year. However, if you were to consider purchasing power, you’d want to use something such as the Value of a Consumer Bundle (better than the Consumer Price Index) and you’d need to get a weekly salary of $2,268.13.
And as to “advanced degrees,” common sense counts for a lot more and I don’t think any reader of this blog considers an animal trainer unskilled!
For Barney McDermott,
Generally, reserved seat chairs were an additional 25-cents, making the cost of the best seat at a big circus in the early 20th-century about the same as Ringling charges today in my region for its best seats. And audience members who paid a premium in 1903 never got to go around the arena floor and be part of the spec.
In 1903, the Barnum show had only 16 displays, quite a number less than I’ve been accustomed to since I first saw Ringling in 1960. The large tent permitted it to have three rings and two stages but two of the displays only occupied two stages and one display was only one flying act. And the triple was never performed by that flying act, or most during that era.
I’m glad you can acknowledge that the single lady with “with two doves and a pussy cat” (I counted more) “is well trained and well presented” because the GSOE has often featured solo performers in a single ring display and I immediately think of a number of jugglers: Truzzi, Fudi, and Gran Picasso.
In the late 19th-century, about the only entertainments available were the circus and the county fair. With the advent of amusement parks, moving pictures, television, etc., I’m glad the circus in some format is still alive.
Dick Flint
Baltimore
Mr. Burck,
1993's $1500 in today's money would be about $2.100. And that's an approximation; past performance is no guarantee of future returns, as my broker always reminds me.
That does not include the value of your Emperor's robe.
Mr. Flint, are you one of those guys on C-SPAN? You haven't told me if you found a SOLO HOUSECAT ACT in that program of yours.
Also, in that program you won't find 50 Chinese acrobats from Communist China. Aghast, we still have Communists? Yes, and a lot of them are holding American Flags in American Circus finales!
In rural China in the 21st century, the average salary is $2.000. a YEAR,
that's $4.00 a WEEK! No wonder they shuffle off to Shanghai and skip out of Shandong to become circus acrobats.
Yes, I can see it now: Shandong to Sarasota; THE MOVIE. The scene: a young Chinese acrobat, played by A. Young, is dismayed by paying $4.00 (a week's salary) for a cup of Starbucks coffee in Sarasota that is harvested in Ethiopia by coffee pickers making 50 cents a day. (Hey, does Feld own Starbucks, too?)
Wouldn't Shandong be a great name for an elephant groom?
This blog in the blogoshere is for CIRCUS DISCUSSION; an informal debate; a healthy, vibrant and earnest conversation.
Let's hear from more of you!
I just checked, WASHINGTON DC is secure, we still have FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Start typing! There's nothing on TV tonight except a dancer with a wooden leg; who said Vaudeville is dead?
Ok let's compare cost
look at that program, yes it is more pages, more and more pages about the "behind the scenes people" and smaller and smaller blurbs about the few acts that they have.
Compare the number of 3 ring displays, and the overall number of acts and the number of animals,cage acts, horses,elephants, spec walk-around stock,etc.,etc..
Now compare the number of people in the production,and the number of people "behind the scenes"
His circus has no winter quarters,but his offices are worth more than one of his own shows !
Yes things are changing Mr. Flint the main thing here being priorities
In the "old days," kids got to ride around on the floats during the show for free! Now they pay through the nose to be a so-called Circus Celebrity and ride around in some sort of float/wagon.
The sad truth is that it takes a whole lot more to impress people then it did back then,,,and we are giving them even less. Children these days 7+ are seldom impressed with anything circus.
Skilled, NO labor, $1,400.00 per week, 52 weeks a year. No down time or lay offs {sort of} All expenses paid. 1963 What a life!!
I think the problem is what Einstein said about every thing being relative is not always true. My mother used to argue that when she & dad were married it took an hours wages to buy a loaf of bread, now you can buy more than one loaf for an hour's wages. That's fine if all you want to eat is bread. Tell me why does a nickle dip of ice cream cost over a dollar????
"A wealthy man is not the one who has the most. It's the one who needs the least."
Bread, snocones, communists, $1500 week salaries... c'mon people. Who cares. We're on this site because we love circus.
Even in 1903 they where all selling goodies for the customer to take home. And alot of them are around today.........
Postcards.
P.J.Holmes
Hey "Wealthy man...."
You ask, "who cares?" Well, I care, is that good enough for you?
I care about GOOD CIRCUS, not inferior productions and that's why I'm here.
But why just pick on RBBB? Does anyone know if Johnny Pugh is repeating that pony act from last year? Another waste of time.
For the record: THE MADAM OF SHAMS and her housecats...I've seen that act on Big Apple and other one-ring formats. An excellent animal act in those settings. The act went over very well and was quite impressive. See? I'm not an old grouch, I'm a picky old grouch.
I just don't think RBBB is doing a service to its LOYAL CUSTOMERS by letting a trainer present a pigeon jumping up and down on the hand whilst she passes an 18 inch hoop under the pigeon's feet in the middle of a black floor in an arena that holds 18,000 people.
But she's gone, let's move on and rake someone else over the coals!
OK SHRINE PRODUCERS...take notice...start looking for the Ace Hardware Store's Memorial Day flyer so you can stock-up on AMERICAN FLAGS for your finale. I am NOT against the AMERICAN FLAG, and I CRINGE when I see foriegn acts exiting the floor and OUR FLAG is accidently lowered too close to the floor and then is slightly dragged while the performer is trying to roll it around pole. Don't we have performance directors any more?
What we discuss and the way we discuss things on the blog is just like the sports fans ripping the owners/manager/overpriced players...we care and we want the BEST for our TICKETS!
PLAY BALL!
Larry Allen Dean has a number of points I can sympathize with but I do want to point out a few historical facts for perspective. The content of the Ringling books of the 1970s-90s was unusually good. The Barnum and Ringling programs in the early decades of the 20th century and into the combined years recycled the same articles and pictures year after year after year. I do miss the listing of displays in the last couple of Ringling programs and am disappointed that some acts, such as Giselle Riquelme, aren’t given much credit at all in the 136th edition. Over the years, many circuses have used fairgrounds or farms for winterquarters and those that we often fondly remember such as Sarasota or Peru were the exception in size. Also, during the James A. Bailey era, the show had its own New York City structure, the Bailey Building, though I can’t compare it to the Vienna complex. While I know we hold the GSOE to a higher standard because, historically, it has been grander, are we going to jump all over Carson & Barnes, traditionally a big animal show, for only carrying three elephants this year? Have we criticized the elephant ride operators who have raised their prices as high as $15? These are business decisions of the owners.
The early 1970s were great years for Ringling. Building managers weren’t as savvy about operations as was Irvin Feld in renting them. Eastern European circus schools produced some extraordinary acts and competed to export them at fees lower, I presume, than the Chinese are able to command since they are almost the sole source of big troupes today. Animal rights activists were not yet so visible. And Gunther emerged as one of the greats in the business. I remember when Irvin Feld was resented as an outsider, a newcomer to the circus business, and his appearance upon the circus world galvanized the Sarasota community (where I was living at the time) into forming an opposition show in 1974, Circus America, produced by Paul Kaye and Karl Wallenda that opened and closed at the old (but then brand new) Capital Centre in Washington, D.C. Of late, writers to this website have been more fairly honoring Irvin Feld’s achievements.
I hope these exchanges have helped all of us understand that you can’t go back in time. Larry Allen Dean is correct about priorities but there are many business choices along the way as well as particular opportunities that one moment in time presents.
And if we want to go back in time, I would hate to endure year after year some of those old historical and Biblical specs such as Columbus or Solomon that occupied half of the show back in the 1890s-1910s! Seeing one once for the “historical experience” would be enough!
Dick Flint
Baltimore
Mr. Flint,
BRAVO, fellow circus lover! Very well said!
Also, a big show with out 9 OR MORE elephants is very diappointing.
I thought last years Carson and Barnes was very enjoyable overall, but I miss the big herd.
I though last years Cole Brothers was most diappointing. Remember it is during the Johnny Pugh era that HE eliminated a LIVE BAND and HE eliminated the AMERICAN CLOWN ALLEY and he/and/or Elvin came up with the uni-Euro-drome or whatever they call that lego-block rectangular frame on the floor.
It is my opinion that PUGH, COLE & BALE should have just shrunk the seating and the tent and kept the higher level of perfomance of years past, and I emphasis VERY PAST.
On to the next topic! Let's get the those overweight, rolly-ass SHRINE CLOWNS back into the seats and the lobby to shake hands and pose for photos. I buy a ticket to see the PROFESSIONALS work, not amateurs. Before you know it we'll have the local gymnastic school doing a "skit" in the center ring, too.
Thank you for the figures, Mr. Flint. I think, I can help Barney with some additional understanding. He seem's to have issue's with they calibre of acts being presented today. That 1500.00 salary in 1993, is now worth 1000.00 for performing today. Not alot of motivation for a lot of great performer's to be with it and for it. Many of them have wisely, chosen other profession's, skilled and unskilled, in which to make a last ditch effort, at a future. Wade Burck
With the exception of the location of the Holy Grail, nothing is more closely guarded than a circus performers salary. Maybe weve done it to ourselves. Value, worth, drawing power, salary's are posted everywhere for athlete's, performers of all types and field's, Broadway, Vegas, etc,etc. Rodeo athlete's, to Wrestling entertainers, etc.etc. In my old age, in an effort to point out the truth's, so that possibly it will be a better world for my children, I will you Mr. Flint's value of measuring worth. In 1976, I was paid 350.00 for presenting a wild animals act, plus housing. In 1993, that was worth 900.81, value of consumer bundle. An organization reputed to be "cheap", and who doesn't pay anything, paid me 1500.00 plus housing. Using this basic system of figuiring, 350.00 in 1976 is worth 900.81, in 1993. 900.81 is worth 1000.00 in 2007. Are there any other honest performers out there? Let's find out where that Snow cone money is, and why the performances, have become smaller, and weaker. Wade Burck
on reply to mr burck maybee, he was worth it a lot of peaple are not and never will be.
new to this is the Larr Allen |Dean the excelent Lion trainer that worked for James Cllub for a while saw him practice with Mr Clubb once excellent, i maybee wrong but worked atr circus Roncali in germany i think John Compollongo took over this group but with not as many male lions first impressions to a young man is allways the best. we need more like this, talent must be out there now regardless of the price , when you find it tell everybody, because i see almost everybody as run of the mill or you great oldies are not passing down info or we are not willing to listen?
Since I'm forever an employee, it's always been someone else's decision as to what my job was worth. Could I have refused the lower wages I've sometimes accepted over the years? Sure. But for me it's been about staying in the arena, continuing to work cats because that's what I love to do. If my sole motivation was to make a bundle of money, I certainly would have chosen a different line of work.
I don't feel that's a reflection on the quality of work I've done. It's been a personal choice and decision which has allowed to stay continuously employed. If that's a bad thing, so be it.
I'd also like to add that whether it's a small salary or a large salary, and I've earned both, I've always done the best job I could with the animals available. I've worked just as hard for the small money as I have for the large amounts. I don't think there's any shame in that. For some of us, it's all about the privlege of working with lions and tigers. Take the best salary that's offered, then get to work.
Clarification for future historians...When I posted my above comment concerning $2,100, it was not to contradict Mr. Flint and his estimate of $2,200. Both of our comments were sent and being "held" by Buckles for review before posting. I've stirred up enough Ringling rumblings.
Mr. Burck, I know of no other profession (and all circus artists are professionals, they don't give themselves enough credit) where the salaries are stagnant and don't rise with a combination INFLATION and IMPROVEMENT/UPGRADES on their "act", or in college marketing parlance their "product".
The problem has many little problems: first you have producers who use to be performers who might have been good performers but that doesn't make them good producers.
You have Shriners with the exception of a handful of committees that don't know what they are doing in regards to front end promotion or show day presentation.
Circuses have become "commodoties", nameless common products. Remember when the billing use to read: Gitche Gumee Shrine presents POLACK BROS. CIRCUS? The "steal 'em at all cost" producers didn't care if their name was billed, they just wanted the date to keep the acts working that week.
Check your local school districts and municipalities and unions...they FIGHT tooth and nail for guaranteed increases of: 18% spead over 4 years, as an example. You what the unions tell us: "Hey, if you want a good police department we have to attract good people and the way to do that with competitive compensation (salary, retirement, health care, sick days, vacation).
I think some producer should use the starch in his britches and stand up to these committees and use that same line.
Why do we call people "a producer" who really don't produce anything, they just book a line-up of acts and re-paint the ring curb every year. That's just a fancy agent with a ring curb and a set of lights.
There is TOO LITTLE work and TOO MANY WORKERS (performers) so the prices are easily driven downward by producers and the Shrine.
Mr. Burck, if you please: With the consumer bundling your original weekly salary would be about $2200. plus housing and transportation. You're "on call" 24 hours a day/7days a week. If you took a 168 hour week/2200. per that would give you about $13.00 an hour. Lets make that 84 hours a week and that's only $26.00 an hour. That job description is highly specific and requires a great deal of experience and talent. You just can't take anybody and stick them in a cat arena (although some have tried).
I dont think $2200 is enough. Mr. Burck, if you could name your price what would it be? Or a range of a price? 3500? 4500? more?
***I've spent so much time on the computer these past few days the MRS. thinks I must be having an affair.
What an interesting direction this commentary has taken! I remember when Paul Binder got started. He was then an outsider—regarded with skepticism—and had a new concept as a non-profit that only added to the wariness by many but the comment was, “Oh, but he pays great money!” That got him attention, fine acts, and now 29 years of success. And if you want to discover just how successful he and his top staff and performers are, as a non-profit its all public knowledge because of IRS form 990 that any non-profit must file.
Dick Flint
Baltimore
Patricia, I could not agree with you more. It was hard for me to believe I actually got paid for working with animals. I did a whole lot of work for free just to learn from others. I had the good sense to listen to real trainers and pass the bad guys up. To this day I still put the animals first. They teach me more than any books I have read or classes I have attended. I never charge senior citizens for my services and it has really paid off in the long run. I may not have cold hard cash, but the pay in friendships, and knowledge from taking care of these animals has all been worth everything. Friends beat money anytime, but thank god I kept a friend who shares cold hard cash when push comes to shove. And I never have to ask. To day a friend brought enough food to last a week for all the animals, grocerys to last me a week, [2 cases of beer] My medicine for three months. All because I cared for her pet when he got old and needed special care. Good friends and animals are better then a large salary any time. They know you care.
Amen, Rebecca. Leaving something tangible for an offspring is important; but other than that, well, you can't take it with you anyway. Nor will you need it. I've "never missed a meal and the roof don't leak, everything else is gravy."
If that's not a Country Western song, it should be.
I admire the comments of Pat White, Rebecca, and so many others describing their careers with animals that appear on this blog. More than once have I directed an animal skeptic to this blog to help them discover for themselves just how fondly circus people regard the animals with whom they work and the concern and knowledge they have of the living creatures for which they are responsible.
Pat: do you remember those hot, hot Baltimore days a few years back when you were on Sterling & Reid set up at the Pimlico racetrack? I appreciate the many conversations we had. I wish you appeared on the east coast more often!
Dick Flint
Baltimore
I sure do, Dick! Thanks for remembering, and for your nice comment. I believe we should also thank Buckles for giving us a forum where we can express this stuff. I think the only "east coast" I'll be playing for a while is the Far East coast!
I was hunting pine shavings at Pimlico, and bumped into someone at the track and asked, "Did Kelso or Exterminator ever run here?" He didn't know. I think Kelso did, but what about Exterminator? Do you know, Dick? Thanks
i dont agree with Miss White , the person you work for makes money. they might say they dont but they do,everybody does something for charity, but when you get older where is this charity, i agree just to work with the animals is great, but going into K mart and getting your weekly shop and then informing them you work with wild animals they will throw you out .WE ALL NEED HARD CASH. who cares how much R>B>B>B> charge for snow cones without profit this nice world we live in will close everything down.
i think all animal people have been shit on at some time if you now what i mean, there are a lot of very rich people out there, so lets get rich for doing (or just live quite well)doing What we all LOVE doing.
Anonymous, I'm unclear on which part of my comments you disagree with, since I was stating how I've felt about my own wages, and how things have played out for me. Cats vs. $$, cats win.
I for one don't tell the checkout girl at K-Mart what I do for a living. I can't imagine how it would come up in a conversation while checking out Martha Stewart linens, Doritos and a weed eater.
(Yep, gotta keep that grass down around the wheels of my tiger cages!? Need a snack before I cut my lion meat!? Sleep better on these here sheets after a hard day as a wild animal trainer at the circus!?)
But you are right, we all need cash. I'm still hoping for that winning lottery ticket, because by the time someone puts a proper price tag on such risky business as wild animal training, I'll be too old to collect anyway.
I agree with Pat. None of us every got rich doing what we love. We managed to survive and continue on or in my case as a lone owner of my tiger act, go broke. If we didn't love what we were doing, we wouldn't have done it in the first place.
Bob
I told Paul Binder, "When I say $35 a week and cook house, I don't mean $34.95 and I don't mean $35.05. I mean $35 a week and cook house",
Patricia, There are a couple of trainers/presenters out there who have been around animals for 30 years and still don't get IT. They are in for a very rude awakening when they retire. Great animal people were never in IT for the money. You can only eat so much ego.
the problem lies in just a few words. we all Love What We Do,and the people above now that. they should just pay us what we deserve? And let us get on with our job.
Funny Buckles should use $35 as his number. When I started on Sells & Gray in 1973 I got $35 a week and got to live in the back of the truck with the elephant and 2 winos
now who could walk away from an offer like that ?!
Hello friend Larry, I made a little wiser choice in my career start, in 1975. I chose a building circus, which paid 75.00 a week, and only had to sleep with one wino. That, plus the food found under the seat's (although dirty, at least it wasn't soggy or wet), obviously made it an offer I couldn't refuse. Best wishes, hope you are doing well, Wade Burck
Pat, I suggest that you don't hold the exclusive to "I've done the I best could, with what was available" I have heard other's make that statement in the past. With the exception of Charly, Gunther, Jim, Dicky, Josip, Herta, Jimmy, etc., of course. Wade Burck
P.S. Rebecca, "Friend's beat money anytime", is one of Mr. Cuneo's favorite quote's also. Wade Burck
P.P.S.Barney, 3700.00. Wade Burck
Wade, I consider John Cuneo my best friend. Always has been and always will be. Where do you think I got the saying? I am not selling and he is not buying a friendship. Its just there.
Well, Wade, if that's meant to be a slam, you missed. Go clean some cages. It will be good for you.
iam sorry but i have allready upset somebody today after all, its the animals that count. i do not now any of you but i now all of you by reputation. lets keep the comments fun and intrestig, am waiting for some more great photos,
i hope anglo american relations will hold up,USA and Europe are miles apart,just one last thing the greatest of all came from Europe and some of you have worked and lived over here but not many of us have survived over there? iam learning more about your history and training through this blog Mr Buckles we are not worthy.
Pat, it wasn't meant to be a slam. I was only pointing, out that I had heard the quote before. I was not seeing if a shoe fit or anything Each time I try to clean cages, I'm told "let us get you some men. We pay you to much to clean cages". But I sneak one in now and then, as it's good for the soul.
Truthfully Rebecca, I don't know who you got the saying from. But I do know who you didn't get it from. Wade Burck
Wade, I think you missed his point.
I understood him to say that Pawdebois claims to the the only person that can work "Joe".
Friend Buckles, Apparently, I have missed more then the point. To be sure, I quickly scanned this post, and I didn't see any thing about Joe or Pawdebois.
To Anonymous Europe, being aware of the language barrier, I hope I am not misinterpreted. Historically, the GOOD trainers who came here, became GREAT after they were given the opportunity to work with large numbers of animals, as America was accustomed. They became the GREATEST, if they were fortunate enough to appear with The Greatest Show on Earth. Further, I will bet you a 3700.00 paycheck and one of Bud's elephant Snow cones, that more European trainers have come here to work, and more, have stayed here, and had great lives, and careers here, then the opposite. I would now like to ask Mr. Woodcock, Mr. Herriott, and other's, to join me in the singling of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. Col. Sr, Milt, Smokey, Rex, Clyde, Terrell, and the other's can join in at the chorus. Mine eye's have seen the glory hmhmhmhmhm------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud, your right. It does help if you have a drink of water, and say 18.00 programs, 5 times as fast as you can. One more thing, European anonymous, I hope I didn't misunderstand your USA/European/anglo/American/border/boundries/ quote. I am just wondering, because once a British collegue, was quoted in The LA Times, as saying "I am a European trainer, nothing at all like the American trainers". Boy, was that an understatement. After quickly checking my Geography text, to be sure, I pointed out to her that Britian is an Island unto its self, with a Monarchy, and as I understood it had nothing at all to do with Europe. So do we have a European style,an American style,a British style. Hell let's get the pope some cat's and we can include a Vatican style. Me, I want a North Dakota style, Johnny Herriott, I bet you want a Minnesota style. Yes, your right, Mr. Cuneo, we should have an Illinois style. What a load of crap. Wade Burck
Pat, so you know your racing history! To answer your question, Kelso never raced at Pimlico but did compete at Laurel and Bowie, two other Maryland tracks. Exterminator started 9 times at Pimlico between 1918 (the year he won the Derby) and 1924, his last year racing.
Dick Flint
Baltimore
dear Mr Burck,
I, was talking about the language barrier, not about how good or bad either USA,European styles are, when i next visit USA i would love to have an ice cold beer with you, because face to face would be much easier for us both to understand.
Sorry for the Confusion. it is not ment to be direspectful.
Hi Dick,
I don't know if you'll find your way back here to read this post, but THANK YOU for the info on Kelso and "Old Bones" at Pimlico. I'm not really well versed in race history, but as a kid I was entralled with Thoroughbreds and racing, those two were my favorites to read about. In the '60's, I even dreamed of being a jockey (pre-Robin Smith) until I grew too tall and heavy. Thanks for answering my question!
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