Monday, April 04, 2011

From Steve Flint


Beatty%201954, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

Dear Buckles-

On March 27 you had posted a picture entitled Windjammers 3. It was a little bandchariot that was on Gentry Bros., Norris Bros., Norris & Rowe. Ole Whitey made a mention of it being on the Clyde Beatty outfit in 1954 and then was later burned in Demming, NM. This photo is for Ole Whitey showing it on Beatty, somewhat updated with air tires.
Flint

Posted by Buckles at 4/04/2011 06:08:00 AM

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

All OK, except that it didn't burn in Deming. It was later at Beatty's Jungleland in Florida.

04 April, 2011 11:16
Ole Whitey said...

I think Steve is correct.

There was a fire at the former Beatty quarters in Deming January 4, 1958, after the show had changed hands and had started wintering in Deland. Several parade and cage wagons burned, or in the case of this wagon partially burned.

During the winter of 1959-1960, when Beatty leased the former Aquafair property in North Miami and started his Jungleland there, he brought the remains of this one to Florida and Tommy White restored it or partially restored it for display.

Later Tommy offered the wagon "80% restored" for sale in a Nov/Dec 1968 White Tops ad and I have no idea what happened to it after that. I am surprised that it has never surfaced.

Maybe it burned a second time? If so I have seen no mention of this in any publication.

04 April, 2011 11:56
Anonymous said...

Tommy White's personal notes on the wagon state he received it in 1964.

He noted work done by someone named Arthur Stoner of Titusville, FL in 1961.

There are no differences evident between photos taken after Luth's work for Beatty circa 1955 and photos of the wagon in 1961.

There's something amiss with the Deming, NM fire story.

04 April, 2011 13:59
Ole Whitey said...

The Deming fire did take place; I have two newspaper stories from the time- both Deming papers- reporting on the fire; and no this wagon is not named or pictured although the remains of at least one cage wagon are seen. What is the basis for your statement that the wagon burned at Beatty's Jungleland? I have seen nothing reported on this.

Tommy told me of Beatty crying over the burning of the "Gentry bandwagon" (Beatty called it) and I have always assumed Tommy and I were both thinking of the Deming fire.

1964 would made sense for Tommy's acquiring the wagon, which would make it after Beatty was out of the Jungleland operation. I did not know of this Arthur Stoner's work but Beatty disposed of his interest in the park during the summer of 1961. Dave Hoover and Sam Crowell operated it for several years thereafter.

04 April, 2011 15:42
Lane Taburt said...

The fire in Deming, NM, was no flight of imagination. It did occur, as Ole Whitey said. While researching a series of articles in Bandwagon magazine on the Beatty winter quarters in Deming, I found an article in the Deming Headlight reporting on the fire, which burned a number of historic items that Beatty had moved there with the intention--before he sold out to McCloskey and Co.--of starting a museum on his circus career.

04 April, 2011 19:17
Anonymous said...

1958 Deming fire:

April 4, 2011 postings: “The Deming fire did take place” and “The fire in Deming, NM, was no flight of imagination. It did occur . . ”

RESPONSE: The actual occurrence of the January 4, 1958 fire at Deming, NM wasn’t disputed by this prior April 4, 2011 posting: “There's something amiss with the Deming, NM fire story.” That statement means that the claims of March 28 and April 4 below, the “story,” pertinent to the partial or complete destruction of the bandwagon, are not accurate.

Bandwagon destruction:

March 28, 2011 posting: ". . . it was in the Beatty parade in 1954, later burned at Deming, Tommy White restored etc."

April 4, 2011 posting: “. . . made a mention of it being on the Clyde Beatty outfit in 1954 and then was later burned in Demming, NM.”

RESPONSE: There is zero evidence that the wagon burned, partially or entirely, at Deming. As noted, there is no reference to any such loss in the Deming newspaper coverage. Billboard, Bandwagon and White Tops are all silent on the issue. Photographs taken c1955 and 1961 reveal no substantial changes to the vehicle across the 1958 threshold.

Tommy White Involvement

April 4, 2011 posting: “During the winter of 1959-1960, when Beatty leased the former Aquafair property in North Miami and started his Jungleland there, he brought the remains of this one to Florida and Tommy White restored it or partially restored it for display.”

RESPONSE: Arthur Stoner of Titusville, FL repaired the bandwagon in 1961. The extent of the repairs is unknown. White did not have possession of it until 1964. White did not repair it for exhibition by Beatty.

05 April, 2011 17:59
Anonymous said...

Here is the root of the "bandwagon lost in the fire" account. “The wagon remained there [Deming, New Mexico] and was destroyed by fire a year or so ago.” This is in a caption for a photograph of the wagon. Bandwagon, November-December 1959, page 7. Clearly the anonymous writer was refering to the January 4, 1957 Deming fire.

05 April, 2011 20:40
Ole Whitey said...

To Anonymous (not the Anonymous who cited the 1959 reference to the wagon having burned but the Anonymous who commented that "There is zero evidence that the wagon burned, partially or entirely, at Deming"):

In your examination of my earlier remarks, you neglected my question "What is the basis for your statement that the wagon burned at Beatty's Jungleland?"

05 April, 2011 23:05
Dick Flint said...

In early February when some Frank Walter wagon photos were posted on the blog, I commented on the Deming fire and referred to a statement by Tom Parkinson in his “Circus Trouping” column in Billboard for Apr 4, 1960 (page 66). Here is Tom’s full report verbatim: "Those who keep track of old parade wagons had scratched the former Frank Walter wagons from the list. The wagons had been given to Clyde Beatty about 1954 and used on his show, then stored at Deming, N.M. The show moved away from Deming and later one of the storage buildings burned. The wagon detectives learned that the wagons were lost in the fire. But in recent months there were rumors that some of the wagons might have survived. One man with circus contacts said he had seen some of the wagons near Deming. Now the wagons are 'found' again. Clyde Beatty still has the former Norris & Rowe bandwagon, a small air calliope and one other at his Jungleland near Miami."

Parkinson is a nearly inscrutable source on such matters and as a Billboard staffer had plenty of access to news. This was the time when he worked closely with Chappie Fox in securing rail cars and wagons from Sarasota for the fledgling Circus World Museum. The real question is how this wagon fell from the sight of such acquisitive historians in the 1960s when parade wagons were eagerly sought for the new museum. And might our anonymous contributor post the photo he mentions?
Dick Flint
Baltimore

06 April, 2011 00:38
Anonymous said...

"It was later at Beatty's Jungleland in Florida."

The statement means exactly that---the wagon was later at Jungleland.

I didn't ignore your question, it had no basis.

06 April, 2011 08:23
Ole Whitey said...

Dick has gotten to the root of the dilemma: there was a Deming fire, some believed the parade wagons had burned, including at least one Bandwagon staffer, they were later revealed to be okay, brought to Beatty's Jungleland and at some point as yet undocumented they actually did burn. The other wagon Tom mentioned must have been the Tally Ho as parts of it were listed in Tommy's 1968 ad.

06 April, 2011 09:38

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