Monday, August 09, 2010

"Water for Elephants" (From John Goodall)


038, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

Site of the assemblage of the Benzini Bros. Circus train.

Posted by Buckles at 8/09/2010 06:06:00 AM

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

Are you not afraid by posting these photos that some of the circus mystic will be lost for movie viewers? Now when we see the train we will remember the mock ups under the covers and all the hard work of the set designer will be lost.

09 August, 2010 09:20
C B DeMille said...

Mystique

09 August, 2010 10:44
Buckles said...

Next you will tell me the Titanic wasn't real.

09 August, 2010 10:44
Wade G. Burck said...

Buckles,
If you are trying to say the Titanic was not real, I have to stop you before you insinuate that the Oliphaunts from the Lord of the Rings Trilogy were phony, also. FYI and I quote:

Oliphaunts are large beasts resembling elephants. Oliphaunts were grey with trunks and tusks and big flapping ears. They were much larger than the elephants of today. Oliphaunts came from Harad, in the far south of Middle-earth. The Haradrim used Oliphaunts in battle and put houses and towers on their backs to carry Men. The thick hides of the Oliphaunts deflected arrows and an adult Oliphaunt could carry, in addition to houses and towers, 30 men on it's back.

Wade Burck

09 August, 2010 15:20
Chic Silber said...

Mystique is a mid size Mercury

And ALL of the mystics in this

area are under geographic control

of Madame Mitchell who has the X

from Gypsy Central Command (true)

09 August, 2010 20:29
Anonymous said...

Buckles and Wade,
You have really disapointed me and Dirk Pitt. What next "The Easter Bunny"?
Bob Kitto

10 August, 2010 08:37
Anonymous said...

A few months before my aunt, Peggy MacDonald died she and here sister Billie Henderson Schuller read “Water for Elephants” together and got a real good laugh out of it. Particularly when the girl ran all over the lot in her pink slippers.

How do I upload some picture I would like to send to you in honor of Peggy’s birthday tomorrow?
Grace Swank-Davis

10 August, 2010 11:47
Buckles said...

bucklesw@tampabay.rr.com

10 August, 2010 11:58
Jackie LeClaire said...

Good Lord, if the movie is anything like the book, it aught to shock us all. The carrying on in the book is something else, and it does not portray circus people in a good light at all. I had to read the book so I could defend the circus at a book club meeting here in the 400 people retirement center. Red Lighting and throwing off a loveably dwarf while the circus train was going over a high tressel is not exacactly the Greatest Show On Earth stuff. The prostitue that traveled with the show did have some good points, I won't mention what they were. The treatment of the elephant by the show owner really made me sick specially when he throws a lighted cigaret into the Rosie the elephants mouth. Really nice stuff. Unfortunatly that is what made people want to read it and that made the book a best seller.
. The discription of Jacob's drunken orgy with two of the show girls is really charming. I doubt if the movie story will clean it up, probably enhance the story even more. Well, like I tell everyone, it is only fiction, but the writer did a goog job of making it look like the real thing. I hardly meet anyone outside the circus anymore that when they know I am circus, does not ask me if I have read Water for Elephants. The movie should be a pistol. Jackie LeClaire

10 August, 2010 16:20
Anonymous said...

For sure I didn't just crawl out from under a rock, but some of the book's passages made me uncomfortable. They just weren't needed and apparently were used to draw more readers from the word-of-mouth the author hoped for. A little something for everyone mentality.
If you want an exciting, but family orientated circus book, try my 'Wild Animal Circus, True Tales from the Carson & Barnes Circus.'
freewebs.com/circusdays2005
Dennis J. Younger

10 August, 2010 22:38
Anonymous said...

Speaking of Red Lighting....
As Peggy MacDonald told it, Mac blew the Ringling Show in 1937 when he was warned he was going to be Red Lighted for promoting the strike.
Spent some time as a "Gandy Dancer".
Billie Lou

10 August, 2010 23:37
Wade G. Burck said...

Jackie,
Thank you. I was wondering when someone was going to stop pissing down their leg in excitement about the fact that there was going to be a new "circus movie" coming out, and instead point out the potential pr disaster looming ahead, especially in light of the animal rights movement. Although we can point out to any that ask that is is a work of fiction, in all honesty and fairness, it could have been written about any number of shows that we may have been on over the years(if not for the time frame, I would have assumed Circus Vargas. LOL." It is indeed hard to have to defend issues in the book, but when was the last time there was a circus movie made, that did not have some "tawdriness" somewhere in the story line. And Dion/Dennis, all due respect, there are some "elephant training" issues in your book, that are going to be very, very hard to defend, should the need arise some day. Remember how the NFL ran and distanced it's self from Michal Vick? MLB from Mark Maquire and Sammy Sosa? I fear our industry would have shot it's self in it's last remaining foot, by rushing to their defense, in an effort to be "with it and for it."
Wade Burck

11 August, 2010 07:37
Anonymous said...

I read the book and enjoyed the story line and of course the ending in the nursing home and the "mud show" across the street. Terrific. But the book was disgusting in its portrayal of people that have joined the circus and are a fringe element. The cooch broad turning tricks [come on] and the dwarf on the train. I guess that sells books. I doubt if I will go to see it. The elephant abuse was uncalled for, so the language barrier with the elephant was a clever idea that is not too remote and can identify with a number of actual similar situations in the changing over of elephant presenters from one to another. I found that to be true when I took over the Atayde elephants that had had some 20 years hearing only Spainish and also taking over Tanya from Jenda. Not as severe as the book but a little bit of adjustment. I am sure others have been in similar situations. I remember any one trying to figure out what he said when commanding the Nellie, Jenny and Wilmer herd on Cole Bros. in reference to old bull man Little Billy Cox.

11 August, 2010 08:37
Anonymous said...

Before anyone insinuates anything we would like to go on record as saying, Neither one of us ever knew anyone named Jacob or partied with a circus veterinarian. Thank you and God Bless Mr. V.

Yvonne(Wiener)Larson and Kitty(Miss Kitty)Paczolt

11 August, 2010 10:02
Ryan Easley said...

Dennis,
After reading your comment, I could have been certain that you were giving a review of your own book. However, after reading your second sentence I was confused, that you were in fact contrasting your book to Water, and then referring to your own as family oriented?? Your "True Tales" contains horrific tales that should never have seen ink and more over should be forgotten that they ever happened. The stories are the epitomy of (to use your quote) "not needed," and to glorify such cruelty with no secondary of "thank God this was thirty years ago and not today" makes this one of the worst circus books I have ever read. It is a disservice to the industry that I love and have joined; frankly, regardless of the intentions you may have had it makes you no better than Sammy Haddock selling those pictures to PETA that construed a negative light on elephant training.
I hope you received the check. You can be expecting your novel returned in the mail as well, if I don't feed it to our tigers instead to keep one less copy from being distributed.

11 August, 2010 12:59
Anonymous said...

That is a very good point that Mr. LeClair has brought up. When circus movies are discussed, it is often with such a reverence, that may make the uninitiated public not realize that what they are seeing is fiction based on no fact except the setting and the use of 3 rings. It often seems as if the circus is endorsing/verifying what is being filmed/written about the goings on. I am a fan and am only expressing what has been stated to me over the years, by people who are not familiar with the real circus.
Jim Stanik

11 August, 2010 13:07
Anonymous said...

Radar
You can't please everyone with movies or books. I accepted that when I wrote the book.
You may be new in the 'business' but you have old fashioned ideas.
By that I mean continue sweeping under the rug the bad and only speak of the good if you can find it.
What would have happened if some people didn't take a more enlightened view of zoo animal keeping? Would we still be watching big cats in stark, barred cages? Would big cats on shows still be kept in tiny travel cages or in the more humane bigger ones of today? I like to believe elephants today do not often have to be chained because some people complained and the situation got better.
I simply told the story of what really happened back in my day.
Did you notice I said at the beginning that it was my autobiography? I believe you know what that means. Tell it like it was - not make it up as you go.
I understand that you believe in the old fashioned way but hope that you strive in the future to help improve the life of both circus animals and people and not stay stagnant in the past.
If you don't believe me, ask your boss what he told me about the book. He has quite the opposite opinion. Regards Dennis J. Younger

11 August, 2010 19:45
Wade G. Burck said...

Dennis,
Good points, but it is important to make sure that folks really understand and appreciate the fact that much has changed. You are correct also in alluding to the fact that folks can't run or hid from their past. In order to understand it and move past it, we must first study it and learn from it, so that the "history" does not repeat itself. But again, instead of revering the bandits, perhaps they should be a footnote much as an athletes illegal achievements are marked with and asterisk. I appreciated the honesty in the book and just hope folks appreciate the great changes/strides that have been made. Radar, you haven't been around long enough to make an opinion like that based on anything but hearsay. You Dion also, weren't around much of anything, except one of the most notorious situations in the annuals of circus animal keeping/training. You both want to make sure you don't give the world the impression that what occurred was anything other then the exception, and not the rule.
Wade Burck

12 August, 2010 07:57
Frank Ferrante said...

Thank you Wade for a balanced view of the subject. Your experience speaks for itself and I agree that it is important to show the strides that have been made over the years. Now... let's have a GREAT day! ~frank

12 August, 2010 10:45
Ryan Easley said...

I agree with Frank in regards to Wade's comment. Thanks Wade for your "No-Spin" view. Though what opinion did I make that I am not entitled to?
Dennis, I went over and asked my boss (Casey Cainan) what he thought of your book. He said his comments would not pass the strict censorship of this blog LOL

12 August, 2010 13:28
Dennis said...

Radar. I referred you not to Casey's opinion but Mr. North's.
Sometime not too long ago Casey made it clear on his sadly dwindling blog (I hate to see it slow to a crawl as it is a unique blog) that he is revolted at the thought that anyone criticise the care circus animals receive.
My purpose in writing the book had nothing to do with the bad mouthing of an entire industry. Anyone who reads the dates in the book will see this happened years ago when attitudes toward training and animal husbandry keeping were much different than today.
At the risk of sounding like I'm bragging (ok I am) Mr.North said in an email not long after I had presented him a copy of my book inside his circus at the Milwaukee parade last year; "One of the best circus books I have read."
Regards, Dennis
Wade,
Your comments always carry some weight and are not unwelcome. I would like to point out though that my experience/presence is not insignificant in circus and animal husbandry as you mentioned. I have been student and participant for over 40 years. I consider myself 'with it' and 'for it.'
All the best, Dennis

12 August, 2010 15:11
Wade G. Burck said...

Radar,
As this is America, God bless her, you are entitled to any opinion you may have, just by right of your birth. To be more then just "your opinion" it must be based on something other then hearsay. If not it remains nothing more then "your opinion."

Dennis,
I coached youth football for 5 years, was president of the league for 3, and have watched the professional football almost every Sunday for most of my life. I'll bet if I wrote a book about life in the NFL, insinuating that I was a Joe Gibbs, it might face an objection or too. I salute your courage for writing as much "eye witness" fact as you did in your autobiography. Let's hope it works to our advantage.
Wade Burck

12 August, 2010 15:40
Anonymous said...

To Mr. Younger: I would certainly like to read your book, and befiore I do I should certainly not pass judgement, but it seems that you have suggested negative methods of operation in regard to somr time spent on Cand B or DR Kelly-Miller. Where consederable training of certain species wild or domesticated under the watchful ey of DR Miller. I would hope that you may have opportunity to also be around otgher noted trainers at the time. Do you have the ideea that all training was similar to that and it made you embarrassed to be a part of the profession.? I am curious, but not having read this book that , frAnkly I never heard of I am anxious to see or obtain a copy. Please tell me how I can do that. I amm aware of all the participants i n the era you describe. And what has been the time frame of your career? I note 40 years? Unless I am old or senile or you used a different name I will be anxiously waiting for your reply and how to get the book. I am not challenging your story at all. You may enlighten me and I am totally against animal abuse [ not trying to blow smoke] but there is a fine line between discipline of man or beast. that can be breaced both ways [either too much or too little. Either extreme can cause future damage. Tenn. walking horses and saddle bred tail sets or good examples and there are many more. Hope to hear from you, but I am only computer savvy elementary. Maybe Roy Wells can help me. Thanks John herriott

12 August, 2010 16:47
Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Mr. Younger,
I have let the blog slow to a crawl. As we are not doing much new with the cats lately besides waiting for one to grow up. As far as me being "revolted" at people critisizing animal care, I am more revolted at the "persons" critisizing then what they are critiqueing in general. I have never been one to be so "with it and for it" that I would just accept something I new was wrong as ok. Apperently you were. I also note you and most people who "tell the truth" in these sorts of expose', tell the truth when they are long gone from the business they are discussing. That is a difference you seem to skip over. I have a blog where I show videos of tigers being trained "today" while I am still employed as a "tiger trainer". Telling the truth is important for sure, but there is no need to glamorize it, or try to pass it off as standard in the industry. Where you were was an exception Dion, not the rule. This is already way more of an opinion then I wished to have on either your book, or this movie, neither of which will be good for the industry, so I will not be replying to any rebuttal. Just know am I quite glad you didn't have the writing skills of Sara Gruen, and we need not worry about your book hitting the big screen.

Wade,
Joe Gibbs?!?!
SOunds to me like you haven't watched a game in 20 years....lol

12 August, 2010 17:10
Ryan Easley said...

Wade,
What opinion did I make that was based on heresay?

Mr. Herriott,
If you would be so kind as to send an address, I would graciously give you my copy. It is a bit holed up from the tiger trying to eat it though. Picture to be posted soon on my boss's blog (the dwindling one).

12 August, 2010 19:10
mike swain said...

I have always had a problem when someone says "I have been around for x amount of years." That doesn't mean much to me. It is to what criteria. Rex always said "show me don't tell me."

12 August, 2010 23:42
Wade G. Burck said...

Radar,
"Your "True Tales" contains horrific tales that should never have seen ink and more over should be forgotten that they ever happened" is hearsay yet you reacted like it was fact had happened today. What are you so touchy about? Have you been listening to too many campfire jackpots in your short tenure with the circus, and now know the "tell"?

Johnny,
"negative methods of operation!!!!" Where did you did that one up at? That ranks right up there with behavior instead of trick. LOL

Casey,
That was the point, how would I really know what it was about, if I had not observed it for 29 years. No need to comment, let Radar. Sometimes I have a hard time deciding whom I am talking to. LOL


Mike,
And Smokey Jones is known to have said, "show me the pictures." What is your point? Did Casey call in everybody on this? LOL

Wade Burck

13 August, 2010 07:51
Buckles said...

My dad used to say, "I don't want to know what you did with Ringling Brothers! I want to see what you can do here!"

13 August, 2010 08:29
Dennis said...

On Casey's blog, which I said before that I hate to see slow to a crawl ( that is a complement which he ignored) , two photos of a tiger show my colorful book in its jaws. Priceless publicity. A new take on 'Book signing'. 'Book biting'. Lol.
In my opinion, Mr. Herriot deserves a new book, not one with tiger slobber on it. By the way which is still not paid for by Mr. Ryan Easely.
Mr.Herriot, if you will contact me I would be honored to send a copy of my book and the cd of Carson & Barnes Circus photos from the late 70's to you as my gift. We met way back in Circus World Florida when you were Performance Director. Not that I expect you to remember.
circusdays@yahoo.com
Lost in all these comments is the fact that Radar objects to my writing of my own experiences but defends rabidly, his right to comment on it. Go figure that mentality.
The first printing of 'Wild Animal Circus' is nearly exhausted, and I am soon to return to Thailand for the Winter. LAST CALL !
Dennis J. Younger

13 August, 2010 10:32
Wade G. Burck said...

Buckles,
Odd how the original discussion has taken a turn and turned into a hey rube directed at Dennis Younger, who had the courage to write what he had "eye witnessed" at a period to time in our industry, thankfully almost long gone. All of a sudden folks are asking for his "credentials" and "qualifications." I don't recall anyone ever asking Sara Gruen for her credentials or even wondering if she was qualified. It seemed everybody just jumped on the "Oh happy day, a circus movie" bandwagon(no pun intended) including CWM with the offering of wagons. The first person that I am aware of with the courage to say this might not be a good thing to publicly embrace was Mr. LeClair.

I think we should first "qualify" Ms. Gruens "credentials" whom the industry has seemed to embraced, before we start whacking someone who was there, is with it and for it, and wrote as he saw it.

SARA GRUEN: I was actually looking through the newspaper and I saw a photograph–a vintage circus photograph–and that was really pretty much it. I ordered the book of photographs and next thing I knew I was researching it and there we are.

ECM: How long did you spend researching circuses?

SARA GRUEN: Four and a half months. I took four research trips and got a whole bunch of books.

SARA GRUEN: I wrote the first half of the book without any problems, but I had two fairly long interruptions. The first, my horse got very sick and I sat outside her stall for nine weeks. Then she actually stepped on my foot and crushed it afterwards, so I was out for nine weeks.

ECM: Animals have been important characters in all your novels, and I noticed on your Web site that you donate a portion of the royalties from your books to animal related charities. Have you always been an animal lover?

SARA GRUEN: Yeah, and I don’t think I realized I was any different from anybody else until really pretty much the start of this book tour when people started asking me that. And I was thinking, “Yes, I have, isn’t everybody like this?” And I think maybe now I realized I’m a little bit further over the edge of the spectrum in the animal-loving department.

ECM: Tell us about some of those organizations that you support with your royalties.

SARA GRUEN: Well, there are various. The one in Texas where I got my two dogs is called SARA, and they take any type of animal. Because my first two books were horse specific I used to support largely horse charities. But I have branched out. So, there’s SARA. There’s also the United Pegasus Foundation, which helps find homes for off track thoroughbreds and also the foals which are the result of hormone replacement therapy, which of course is made from pregnant mare’s urine. They help find homes for those babies so they don’t end up going to slaughter. Live and Let Live Farm in New Hampshire–they take pretty much all creatures who need help.

Now that we know Ms. Gruens qualifications, Casey, Johnny, Mike, and Radar can have the floor and ask Dennis/Dion Younger for his.

Wade Burck

13 August, 2010 10:41
Frank Ferrante said...

Buckles -

Your Dad's comment was the BEST of all! ~frank

13 August, 2010 11:03
Jim Z said...

I read "Water for Elephants" and altho I was born in '61 (19) based on my expiences I "assume" it to be moderately accurate...One should read Edward Hoagland's EyE opening "Cat Man" ..it was researched on RBBB...On a side note: I read Dion's book...and got the impression that the Author was using the Circus's shortcomings..to justify his own...

13 August, 2010 11:39
Anonymous said...

Is making a tiger chew on a book considered a cruel trick or a humane natural behavior? Any theories?

Ivan Pavlov

13 August, 2010 13:11
Ryan Easley said...

Wade, My reaction was of disgustion at those tales. It is not hearsay that I said they are horrific - he is claiming the stories as true, which no one is doubting or arguing. My original argument disputed the author's claim to a "family oriented" book. The Motion Picture Association of America would no doubt rate this book as 'Restricted.'

Interesting that Mr. Younger is now embracing our pictures, not fourteen hours after threatining me with legal action for criticism.

Zych, I have read 'Cat Man' and enjoyed the book. It would seem to offer a new view of larege mudshow in its heyday.

Wade, as a sidenote, I realize my short tenure with the circus and appreciate it with mixed feelings. I am very grateful that I have started in a more advanced age of animal care standards, though I wish I could have been around to see the larger productions, acts, and the glamour that the circus had decades ago.

13 August, 2010 13:33

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