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Sunday, February 24, 2008
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31 comments:
This is a photo of Gilbert Houcke with a very impressive tiger hind leg walk. Year unknown.
Jimmy,
No disrespect, but I'll lay you odd's that is not a picture of a hind leg walk. If Josip see's this, I'll let him explain why. Expert's in a different field, with similar trick's, might offer insight. Col. Herriott, are you there? Buckles, I'll bet you know.
Wade Burck
I am glad that Ji8mmy advised us as to the trainer. Its amazing that Jando's description of him as the "world's greatest" and we don't know who he is. Whereis the "loin cloth"? To Jimmy, what constitudes an impressive "hind leg walk". It seems evewry cat act does the hind leg walk and Mirror balls. I would like to see somethinjg different along with the "globe of death" and "Cossack Riders k Riders". Both El cheapo. E
E
see neither an arena or a leash...
The interior of the big top appears to be Circus Knie, if that helps you date the photo. My guess would be 1960.
Erik Jaeger
The arena is pulled up from the ring curb, if you look closely you see the top frame and pull up cables. I think the tigers may have come from Circus Krone.
Erik Jaeger
Hard, proveable, agreed upon documented fact's and information. All important in the writing of history, and Greatest of the Great's
story book's.
Wade Burck
Col.
Damn, who cinched you up too tight.
Wade, I stand corrected...I just spoke to the real world's greatest tiger trainer, and he said (as did you) that this is a hind leg stand, and not a walk.
Even the world's greatest arm chair tiger trainer is wrong once in a while.
And yes Wade, I saw the video of your mishap that Josip took in 2006. A nasty accident that could have been so much worse. You seemed to handle it well, looks like he was coming back for 2nds!
Johnny, in my early senior years I have learned that it does little harm to attach extra complimentry words to describe a trainers accomplishments. But it seems it wasn't a hind leg walk after all. I still say Robert Baudy was the first in America to do a bonfide tiger hind leg walk. But we argued about that last year, and no sense re-hashing it.
Jimmy Cole
Col.
With all due respect. Most every liberty horse act also has a hind leg walk. How well a horse or tiger does it, is what constitute's it being a great behav, sorry trick, or a mediocre one. I can only remember seeing one liberty act,where a hindleg walk wasn't trained, and it was trained by one of the greatest. Do you recall which one it was?
With regard's
Wade Burck
If you're talking great tiger tricks, I think one of the most impressive I've seen was Gunther's 3 tigers doing the leap frog/roll overs. If I can remember the mechanics of it, each tiger would have had to be able to roll in both directions. I also liked his tiger/elephant/horse act a lot. I'd be hard pressed to think of other tricks that haven't been done a hundred times.
Though I'd like to see that Russian act where the lions and tigers work on big cylanders.
HM
HM,
I believe that is the greatest trick, that never happened. I have heard about it for years. Last year I rounded up every video known to man of the mighty GGW. No knock the the greatest, but the proof was not in the pudding. If by strange account, someone has a video of this behavior, I will pay top dollar for a copy. Mechanically, the trick is impossible, but if I saw it, I would have to believe it.
Wade you are right about the absence of a hind leg walk in a liberty act. When training thos grey welsh ponies surprisingly none of them were interested in rearing or walking. I was in shock as I figured at least two or three would be cadidates. Finally it seems we got one that would stagger backwords as I recall, but it was embarrasing you can be sure.
Casey,
Gunther did the roll-over, jump-over (monkey roll) with three tigers with the act that came over from Germany. I recall watching with Jules Jacot. Jules was impressed but thought the trick was trained using at least two trainers. When we saw it it wasn't real smooth; a few rolls and jumps, Gunther would get reorganized and do a few more. I don't recall seeing that trick in later editions of his act.
Thank you Mr. Alexander,
My thought has been if the trick was done, and as great as everyone says, why did it never make it onto a video. I assume Mr. Jacot said it took two trainers for the same reason I say it's mechanically impossible, which is one cat has to be jumping or rolling into the "whip". I have no doubt in my mind that the trick was tried, and talked about extensively, however I've heard 8 versions of the when he did it, and the how. Any other animal trainer here who has trained something "unseen" such as this, would no doubt have it on some form of film. For example Marcans tiger jumping over a man ground to ground. Very amazing, and documented on film, rite here on the blog once I recall.
Jim A.,
Thank's Jim. A fairly reliable source. See post to Col. Herriott. I'm betting Col. was so impressed and in awe of the man, it saw it different.LOL Jim do you recall where you heard the term monkey roll.
Wade Burck
Jimmy,
"You appeared to handle it well"
You have either interpreted it different or Josip gave you a different copy. The copy I have, the brown stain is very obvivous on the white pant's. LOL
Wade Burck
Casey,
I saw the leap frog trick years ago also. I had the opportunity to talk with Gunther after his retirement in Columbia, SC. He told me he tried 15 or 20 tigers before they finally got it right. He always had a stand-in tiger waiting and that they had to be "hot" enough to go now, not I'll get around to it type. Those were his words not mine.
Bob
PS: I can't belive its not on tape somewhere. It was terrific.
Mr Cline,
I agree, it is shocking it's not on tape. We now have witness testimony from yourself and Mr. Alexander, saying you saw it with your own eyes, and "talked about the trick" with GGW. I have now heard two versions of the tricks beginnings, one story, from another cat trainer, was that it happened once by accident in practice, and he decided to try refining it. And now that he thought it up, then went through 15-20 tigers to get the trick. At this point I would even accept a still photo as evidence, but till then, I am letting this "big whale" off the hook.
I'm sure I have that "tiger roll / and side leap" trick on tape somewhere. Gunther had that in the act for several years if I recall. It kind of reminded me of that training workout that football players sometimes do.
Jimmy Cole
Casey,
Don't misinterpret. The hot cat's Bob mention's fought like hell, as hot cat's tend to do. The resulting melee, as you can imagine produced a series of leap and rolls. GGW is one of the few ever who had the skill and imagination to try to make it a polished Ta Da. Did he fail? Of course not, he accomplished more then most just by trying? Probably learned something along the way, and utilised that knowledge for other behavior's.
Wade Burck
Jim Alexander hit the nail on the head, that three tiger, monkey roll was erratic at best, never worked quite the same way twice. Easy to see how it could be put on the back burner.
The tiger teeter-board was about the same thing. The tiger on the bottom end always leapt a split second before the other tiger hit the board.
However I was standing beside John Herriott the first time I saw Gunther work in 1970 and when "Kongo" turned slowly on a tub as Gunther, straddling a tiger, acknowledged the audience.
I told Johnny, "Boy! That's pretty strong stuff!" and he replied, "Yes and I have to follow it with my little ponies!"
Gentlemen,
I was the front door man for Gunther Gebel Williams for the latter half of the 1975 season and the first half of the 1976 season,the bicentenial edition. I witnessed that trick every show that I was there. at that point in time it was fairly consistent, but Gunther never concentrated on perfect execution as did Charly Baumann. Gunther seemed to concentrate more on the "flow" of the act as a whole.
It is amazing to me that that trick is not on tape somewhere. I always called it "the monkey-roll" as it was designed to copy the actions of an old time marine corps calistenic.(at least that is what I was told at the time) The only time I ever saw it duplicated was in an act of Doberman Pinchers trained by Luis Munoz. There may be tape of that.
Speaking to Gunther after he retired the trick, when the cats got too old to be "action" cats he told me that he would never try to train it again as it was so difficult, and there were other things that he wanted to work on. I think he was working on training a Girrafe at that time.
Buckles,
Funny how that work's. Most every tiger will flinch, just before a board pop's them in the rear. But a great idea, none the less. Boss had tried a number of those deals over the years, that looked good on paper. Some didn't work, but the ones's that did were glorious.
Wade Burck
I saw the monkey roll done several times, but the most memorable was when it was shown in slow motion on one of the NBC specials they used to do from St. Pete.
I almost had 3 standard poodles doing it, but in the end settled for using just 2 doing leaps and rolls. Training alone, it was too hard to handle 3 leashes at the same time, and it killed my back, so...
HM
If there's a tape of the TV special of Gunther's first year it might have the monkey roll trick. I think I was watching for the trick when I finally saw Gunther in person.
Jim A,
Not on the copy I have. Speaking of tape's, in an effort to let the "unicorn trick" rest and catch it's breath, there is a tape available of one of the great's, who was also my mentor and hero. I usually don't have to defend him, as fan's and contemporaries usually do a good job of polishing his apple, usually while taking shot's at Boss.
The tape I am talking about is the Big Cat's of the Big Top. On the back it say's RINGLING BROS. AND BARNUM GREATS GUNTHER GEBEL WILLIAMS, CHARLY BAUMANN AND WADE BURCK. Sorry Jim, that's excites me and fill's me with such pride.
I digress. On this tape is one of my hero's doing a trick he is world famous for, and went down in history for, which I and other's copied with gratitude, a multiple roll over. I stared at that trick live over a dozen time's in a 4 year period. Put the behavior in slow motion and count. Out of hundred's of hour's of tape Ringling had, that is the most accurate rendition of the behavior they could come up with. And it is fabulous. He was the creator. It's up to the rest to learn understand and refine.
Wade Burck
P.S. Some anonymous, please point out certain white tigers in the tape. I will relish debating the "European's or American's, who is better" nonsense.
I also witness this trick that we called a figure 8. Only have heard it called a monkey roll in recent years. These cats worked very hot and GGW moved with the speed and grace that only he could acheive and the rest of us strive for.
Buckles,
I don't know for sure if this is what the gang is looking for but I have the 1969 RBBB t.v special on tape. I had it transferred from the 16mm film copy I have in my collection.
Gunther did the following on the show.
It started with a 3 tiger roll over and jump. One tiger rolled over while a second tiger jumped over him. Then he rolled and the third tiger jumped over him(is this the "monkey roll"?)The tigers really didn't seem to want to do this trick. Then they did a 3 tiger sit up. Next came a 6 tiger walk around ending in a lay down. The last thing they showed was a single tiger hind leg backward walk.
Then the next part of the act was a tiger and the 2 elephants.
Not being an animal man I don't know if I am calling these tricks by their correct names. I hope this helps.
Dom Yodice
Dominic,
That's the one. What do you want for a copy?
Wade Burck
When Rhodin brought Irvin to negotiate with Carola Williams to bring the animal acts from her circus to the GSOE and they concluded the negotiations. It included liberty horses, 12 elephants [Gunther would also bring five already owned By Ringling known as the "Cipperfield Elephants. 17 in all], the act of a tiger and two elephants, plus some other minor stuff, a bird act, etc. They then mentioned that they were still looking for a big cage act, so Carola and Gunther proposed that they culd produce a tiger act and it was ageed to. So they got some 7 tigers and in a short time Gunther trained a 7 tiger act that came as part of the package. Now Gunther had never trained a big cat act, so it was a challenge for him and he got the job done. The above info came to me from Gunther and David McMillan, who with his brother came here with Gunther as professional grooms, having worked on Knie, Chipperfield as I recall. He was the only person who could get around Tiler, tough Asian that was in the riding tiger act with Congo.
So that was it and it was a very fast paced excellent 7 tiger act that in cluded the Jumps and Rolls routine that was quite complicated but performed very consistant every show. Now Gunther was the most coordinated person I ever knew with increditable quick reaction, so it was the perfect trick for him to train and present. Off the top of my head I can not think of any trainer that would have those plus other abilities to train this routine and would suggest it go in the files as something accomplished only one time. Gunther had early training as a bareback rider and also liberty horses and I believe this aided him in his natural quick reactions. Also he had the ability in working nd training that the tigers moved immediately on command and none of that body urging and suggesting [don't know what else to call it] that is quite common with various cat trainers. I note Baumann had that ability as well, but not like Gunther. He was on top of every movement before they moved so to speak.
So I was there and as a Perf. Director I saw it every performance and marveled at his abilities to get Horses, elephants and tigers to move NOW and especially HOLD their tricks including the elephant cross mount and long mount. Buckles and I have discussed this many times.
But yes the jumps and rolls were part of his act for a number of seasons and always neatly done. I would suggest that he saw it done with some dog acts as it was done, especially by the Stephenson sisters. I was there. I would imagine that eventually one of the tigers would drop out for various reasons, so he never replaced them and that was the end of the routine. Also he probably at the time trained something that was impossible and he was not aware of that fact. That was vintage Gunther.
Wade,
Let me know your email address. The tv special is quite good in that it has several acts depicted from the 1969 show.
Interesting are the Ringling personnel listed in the credits. John Ringling North, Trolle Rodhin, Antoinette Concello, Harold Ronk, Merle Evans, etc. Sort of a Ringling who's who.
Dom Yodice
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