Thursday, February 28, 2008

Al G. Barnes 1923 Route Book #2


Scan000010893, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

Posted by Buckles at 2/28/2008 06:20:00 AM

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

Buckles,
Wait a minute!!!! There's that scooter and baby polar bear deal I mentioned. Does that mean Louis Roth was a "European" trainer? Lou Regan was around him, and I was with Lou. I don't care what any expert say's, I am a "European" trainer, and I would like to be respected as such. Thank you.
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 08:57
Anonymous said...

Roth was the head wild animal trainer for Barnes and had been married to [I use that word with doubt] Mabel Stark and did tutor her among other ladies in presenting wild animals. Nita Belue, Martha Florine and others. Yes Wade I believe he had All American roots and he was a fantastic trainer to be sure. Their are great photos of him with various cat acts. I believe he spent the rest of his career with Barnes, but am not sure about that.

28 February, 2008 09:24
Anonymous said...

From all accounts that I am aware of all the Barnes trainers were American. Both Wild, domestic and elephants. For the record Wade, I consider myself to be All American all the way both in and out of the ring and went to war to protect that and would do it again. I have great respect for my contempories wherever they are from, however I am certainly not intiminated by them. Put that in your non-filter cigarette and smoke it. Also after having been a two-three pack a day smoker I have quit and have not smoked for some eight weeks and its great. I attribute it to what is colled "Commit". It is a lozenge you take when you get the urge and I am now weaned from the lozenge. I urge all you smokers to try it. You can't believe the twenty dollar bills that are remaining in my pocket and how pleased my wife and family are.

28 February, 2008 10:02
Anonymous said...

Always understood that Roth was Hungarian and observed animal acts and training there before coming to America as a teen and actually working with animals.

28 February, 2008 10:45
Anonymous said...

Just took a quick look at a book about Louis Roth by Dave Robeson. The book said Roth was raised on a farm in Hungary and didn't mention any circus influence. Roth came to America alone as a teen-ager.

I'm awaiting Roger Smith's contribution. Probably lots of tales from Jungleland.

28 February, 2008 11:20
Anonymous said...

W. Gardner Burck,

OK, you're a European trainer. Your act may seem to go on forever and, no matter what the cats do, the Col. will still say Clyde Beatty was better.

28 February, 2008 11:26
Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
Which would explain the skills to put 2 cub's on a skooter. I understand from Col that he became an "American style" trainer later. It is about style's, not which country is better, fighting act, or other. Don't give me gentle, that is the biggest stretch of all. Don't keep skirting the issue, because you can't find an answer.
For the record, Col., they never intimidated me either, and that is not the point. What about that loin cloth, who copied who? Didn't realize you were quiting smoking. I have heard that makes you get kind of cranky at times, but yes I should also quit. Let me know if you are going to get born again? I would like enough time to get out of the line of fire.
Respectfully,(to just Col., not anonymous)
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 11:48
Anonymous said...

Jim A.,
That's the Hawthorn tradition. Must have a lot of trick's, and use what you are told to use, and how to use it.Again, what is a European trainer, and what is an American trainer? Dick Chipperfied's fast fighting act's, or Clyde Beatty's, fast fighting act? Gert Semonit's bouncing lion's, or Terrel Jacob's bouncing lion's. Mabel Stark's act with no gun, or Mary Chipperfield's with no gun? Don't use gentle, that has absolutly nothing to do with it.
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 12:09
Anonymous said...

Addendum: I would also suggest that Col. Herriot has a European "style",
I seen a lot of what he does over there.
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 12:11
Anonymous said...

I was at John Herriott's home a few years ago showing him a video tape of a "European" camel / llama / zebra act. This biggest difference I could pick out from the Col.'s comments was that in America you lay a camel down, head toward the inside the ring (for the llama to jump over). In Europe, facing outward to the audience. I guess it works either way.

28 February, 2008 14:16
24-HOUR-MAN said...

johnny:
My congradulations, I'm proud of you, it ain't easy but hang in there.

28 February, 2008 14:41
24-HOUR-MAN said...

RE: Hawthorn tradiditon,,,,
Actually it has been easier then you may think. I am usually given a list of instruction's like this:
I want tiger's #56,29,14, and 96 to do roll over's, fire jump's, waltzes, and hind leg walks. I want", etc.....

When Wade posted this comment, he was not joking, this is what he has had to cope with. I don't claim to be an animal person, and many of you know he & I do not see eye to eye on some things, but this is my opinion.

I would like to see him able to pick out the tigers he wants, and have the freedom to train them as he sees fit. I would put such an act next to any other, American, or European.

28 February, 2008 16:25
Anonymous said...

Jimmy Cole,
I may be wrong but I have only hear the term's "European" and "American" used in regard's to cage act's. PLEASE I WANT EVERYBODY TO UNDERSTAND, and if you love our deal as I know you do, Jimmy you will never use the word's again. In doing 100's and 100's of interview's, invariably I am asked, "is your's an American style act or a European style act?" I alway's respond, "I don't know, what is the difference?" The response every single time in 33 year's has been, "I don't know? I thought the American style was cruel because you beat them, and poked them with stick's, and the European's didn't." That is a fact, my friend and It wasn't me or any other wild animal trainer, that I am aware of that made them think that. Unless there are trainer's out there, that I am not aware of, that tell the reporter's that their's is a European style act to explain why you won't see much, or "if they do something wrong, I just leave them alone, until I get a new animal." The "patch", if there was one, or a wrong explanation has done a great injustice to ALL GREAT European and American wild animal trainers. Plus my comrade's south of the border, and in Asia want to know what their style is. Given a choice, because of what the uninformed/unknowing have lead the public to believe, they all say they want to known as "European Style Trainer's."
Your friend,
Wade Burck

P.S. Thank's for the download. I'll email you tonight, and let you know what I think of the "fat lion."

28 February, 2008 16:35
Buckles said...

I wonder if anyone on the Blog understands what this discussion is about.

28 February, 2008 17:38
Anonymous said...

Jim A.,
Is there a "European Style" and an "American style" of training Sealion's? Don't they practice the craft on both continent's" I watched a lot of it at Marineland, and I have seen video's of your good work, and it kinda looked the same? I wasn't sure until I saw the craft practiced in Europe last year. When I did, being uneducated in that field, it looked the same to me. Am I wrong, or did I miss something?
Honesty Jim, coming from the zoo field, have you heard the term zoo trainer in reference to elephant's to mean something different from the term circus trainer? Or just the term zoo trainer and circus trainer to differenciate between two people's "supposed skills" who were practicing the same craft? Have you thought the term wrong because of what it suggest's? Not back in the day, but within the last 20 years? Did Disney consider those two term's, zoo elephant man/women and circus elephant man/women in their hiring practices. You misunderstood, I wasn't asking be know as a European
trainer or American trainer. The word's have come to mean one thing, and if that's the impression that I, and my endeviors have given you, accept my apologies. European and American has come to mean something different when attached to my craft. Just like zoo trainer or circus trainer. How it is explained to the public, will depend on who they think use cruel method's and who doesn't.
My best to you and your family,
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 18:16
Anonymous said...

Seems clear that labels are meaningless and only provide fodder for interviewers. Perhaps the solution is to make up new meaningless labels. Any act appearing in the US or Europe can be said to employ the trans-Atlantic style of training and performace. If the act is presented in Japan, it becomes the trans-Pacific style. In Mexico it's the meso-American style. And it it involves cats selected by their number, it's the "Illinois School." Of course any one of these "styles" can be anything the trainer wants, so long as it's not called "cat whispering."

28 February, 2008 18:26
Anonymous said...

Johnny,
Congratulations on quiting. I have been on just about everything and can't do it.
Buckles,
If anyone has an answer to your question about the dialog, please let them have #1 billing.
Bob Kitto

28 February, 2008 19:18
Anonymous said...

24 hr. man,
I appreciate it greatly. That's some courage my friend. But it will only bring me heat, and you'll be called a liar. Am I wrong about what the two styles have come to mean.
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 19:37
Anonymous said...

Ben,
I sure hope Mr. Jando show's up. He took some shot's at American Circus, but he was highly recommend, so I am looking forward to him responding.

Wade Burck

P. S. I heard from Casey. Guess they heard about his musical skills, and have him dancing in finale. He said, Thank's Ben.

28 February, 2008 20:13
Anonymous said...

Friend Wade,

Excuse me, I took the Roth to Regan to Burck thing lightly. But it did inspire some interesting comment from you -- and I agree. Excellent points and examples that we can't really say that's a European style or American style cat act.

As to sea lion acts. I haven't seen a big difference in acts from Europe or America. The biggest difference would be that many European acts use South American, or Patagonian, sea lions (with the bull dog noses). They have a different tempermant and are a little slower. People still expect to see a ball balance and a few other things. Roby Gasser did a handstand on a sea lion, Roland Tiebor held a sea lion overhead as it performed a handstand. Good is good where ever they're from.

As to zoo trainer/ circus trainer. Personally, I was always honored to be respected by good circus trainers. One of my favorite compliments came from Eric Adams Sr. years ago. Eric was at the St. Louis Shrine date and Mickey Antalek brought him to the Zoo. That evening down at the ball park Eric told me, "I didn't think you were going to be any good because you're young and work at a zoo but you really have a nice act." Especially with elephants, zoo trainers don't often have the responsiblity of working in an open area where the animals may head in any direction. Not that there aren't some very good intuitive trainers in zoos. Don't know the numbers now but I'd wager there are more permanent elephant facilities than shows on the road with elephants. Just like you're stuck with tiger #34, the local elephants get keeper Whoever who's ability is his/her seniority or politics. But every once in a while we run across some keeper who's trained his charge to program a computer because no one told him they couldn't do it. We also have come across a few show guys who are still here thanks to good animals. Do zoo trainers discriminate against circus trainers assuming (we know what that does) they're rough and heavy-handed? Do circus trainers discriminate against zoo trainers assuming their animals can only work in one location? Before we paint with a broad brush I'll offer one name, Charlie Gray. There are more examples of good trainers from a variety of backgrounds.

I thought all this was kind of silly in the beginning but I changed my mind. Good training is good training, we can probably skip the adjectives.

(Damn, my fingers hurt.)

28 February, 2008 20:49
Anonymous said...

I probably shouldn't get involved in this but Wade brings up something interesting from an elephant guy view. For the past 16 years of handling elephants I have heard the zoo/circus guy comments, not from the public but from inside both fields. During my brief involvement with the show world (as a groom), I was a "zoo goof" until they saw I could "get around them two tail jack-asses". I was elevated to that zoo guy. When I am at the zoo and roll out the bull tub and the elephants do hind leg stands, ground sits and long mounts, the zoo people call me circus. I'd just like to think I'm a pretty good elephant guy.
I have enjoyed this European/American debate but I find that it all started as justification for people to say they are better or more sofistcated than Mr. Beatty. I have a lot of books by wild animal trainers (Kerr, Court, Tetzlaff, GGW, etc.) and they are all good, even great. But my complaint about them all is they dismiss Clyde Beatty with some negative comment. If he was so insignificant to them they wouldn't mention him at all. I don't think I ever heard (on tape) or read Mr. Beatty say anything bad about another trainer. Shouldn't a person be judged on how well his animals respond to him and whether people enjoyed it, no matter where you were schooled. Thanks.
Wade Burck, enjoyed watching you when I younger, no matter what "style" you were.

28 February, 2008 22:16
Anonymous said...

...Gentlemen...someone pissed Herta off...And we must agree with her...

28 February, 2008 23:03
Anonymous said...

Jim A.,
Thank you Jim. I asked you not to go back to the good old day's, and you did anyway. with the great trainer Eric Adams Sr, and equally great Mickey Antelek. LOL
You are right about the sea lion's used in Europe, not that I would suggest you would be wrong about anything sea lion. I only point that out, because I noted in Europe that Patagonian was the preferred species. Knowing nothing of temperament, I just assumed the slower attitude was because they were better trained then what I had seen here. Just joking again.
Best to your wife, and youngsters,
Wade Burck

28 February, 2008 23:42
GaryHill said...

Joey, I think I fit your accessment perfect. I was a Safari Park goof that worked lease cats, and chimps for promo's. Then fell into the elephant goof job with 3 male asians and one female african. Buckles got two males and the african and Rex got the other male. Had one day with the guy that kept them ,then they were mine. It was only when I got on Buckles crew at WQ's did I see what a real elephant man could do! He trusted me with the title of Head Ride Goof at CW and I was proud of it!
A few years later when I left the show it was back to a zoo where the male asian was beating them all up! Got heat because I put the guy to work? Same story in GP at the old Lion Country?

29 February, 2008 00:18
Anonymous said...

Joey,
Haven't heard from you in a while. Never feel there is no need to get involved with ANYTHING that may concern you, unless there is a "congeniality" contest at the zoo. If that is the case, it is not important how good you are with the elephants anyway.LOL I assume you see the profiling that has occured in the European vs American style, being a "zoo" guy, and a "circus" guy. I suspect I know the reason 2 "zoo" guy's got it the quickest.
FYI - Regarding Beatty/Gebel. I never heard anything but criticism directed at Gunther until the day he died, from the "animal fraternity(chimps, bears dogs etc. excluded, of course.) I was one of them when I was younger, until I got the wonderful opportunity to be around him because of the first Hawthorn White tiger act. Later when I was "released on my own recognacense" working with his animals. Most of the thing's I had been told weren't true, and he had more grief and politic's then you can ever imagine, plus ten times the animal load. I don't know why they said that about Beatty? But I do know why I said it about Gebel. I was jealous. Plain and simple.
I was going to thank you, but then you said you enjoyed the act when you were "younger", and I changed my mind. People used to look at publicity photo's and say "you look so young". Now they look at them and they say "My God, how long ago was that?" Thank you, Joey it is appreciated.
Be safe, it's a dangerous world were in,
Your friend,
Wade Burck
wburck3@aol.com (the 3 is for my three incredible son's)

29 February, 2008 00:22
Anonymous said...

Joey and Gary,
I have a great interest in zoo's and their history, and have collected an extensive amount of paraphanalia over the year's. Anything and everything, like a rabid circus fan. My proudest "object's" being a silver keeper jacket button from Hagenbeck zoo compliments of Alan Roocroft, as fine of an elephant man as can be found, and a 1950's Lincoln Park District Zoo keeper's hat from Marc Rosenthal, a very knowledgable elephant man, and a hell of an administrator and from Gary Clarke, a hand signed letter on Hagenbeck letterhead, to John Benson, raising hell because he hadn't packed some snake's right, and the response from Mr. Benson, on Benson Letterhead, telling Hagenbeck he wasn't near the man his grandfather was, and to not be cheap, and pay for better quality snakes next time. The drift I get is the snakes died. I built most of my wonderful collection by trading circus "stuff" for zoo "stuff". But don't tell anybody, okay. One day after taking the new Director of the Atlanta zoo through the menagerie the elephant trainer, asked, " why do you alway's bring those zoo people around", I replied, "I don't know. I guess I just fiqured they liked animals like we do?" I was treated very well, by the zoo fraternity, as long as I remembered to alway's refer to it as "fecal matter", and not slip up, and call it "shit" Back at the "lot", if I slipped up and asked where the dumpster for the "fecal matter" was I never heard the end of it. It was tough wearing 2 hat's at time's.
Best wishes,
Wade Burck

29 February, 2008 10:40
Roger Smith said...

Louis Roth was Hungarian, and apprenticed at the Hagenbeck school, thus not starting out as primarily a circus man. Making his way over here, he worked for a time for Frank Bostock, and gained so sterling a reputation that Al. G. Barnes saw in him an opportunity to realize greater dreams. As Barnes handled increasing expansion, Roth enhanced the performance from a West Coast dog-and-pony show to the wild animal circus icon no one has since tried to duplicate.

When John Ringling gained control, Roth quit on the spot rather than ever work for the Ringlings, whom, for reasons of his own, he held in disdain.

Benny Bennett worked closely with Roth in Thousand Oaks from 1933 to Roth's death of cancer, in 1945. For those he would have anything to do with, myself being among the lucky few, "Uncle Ben" passed on Roth's legacy of extraordinary expertise, and demanded we observe his strict work ethic hour by hour. Animal care came first, something the animal rights people can never grasp, and training, if one ever was allowed that far, was a goal held as a distant second. He quoted Roth every day, usually by means of an endless store of engaging stories. If you were sharp, you learned from every one of them. If not, at least you had been momentarily entertained. The one man universally respected in the Compound, Ben was admired and wholehearedly backed up by another prominent Roth pupil, the ever-vigilant Mabel Stark.

Everyone who was serious about breaking in, went to Thousand Oaks, hopeful first of getting on, then of being apprenticed.

So lasting and pervasive was Roth's influence after his passing, that when a very young ex-GI named Pat Anthony continually applied to Clyde Beatty, Mr. Beatty told him he was going to do him a better favor and turn him down. With this, he advised Pat to get himself to the Oaks. The ways of Roth would come to him there, and he further instructed Pat to get next to Chubby Guilfoyle--which he did, and Pat earned a career. Roth had been young Clyde's first mentor on Howes Great London, in 1921. Guilfoyle soon became his second over there.

Roth began to school Mabel Stark when she first became associated with Barnes, in 1911. He is he reason she rose quickly as a trainer and maintained unquestioned prominence for 56 years. Louis and Mabel were married most of four years, from 1917 to 1920.

Roger Smith

01 March, 2008 18:55

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