Thursday, December 27, 2007

From Ben Trumble to Paul Gutheil


1984, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

(1984 clipping)

Paul. I just didn't stay around New York long enough! When I was in school down in Gainesville I drove across town a few days a week to take extra classes in the Bio Parks Program at the junior college there. I wasn't terribly interested in zoos then, the only zoo man I'd known well as a kid was Carl Kauffeld at Staten Island, but my weekend job was in St Augustine doing animal shows and the Teaching Zoo had a bunch of animals I'd never had any experience with and I figure the more experience the better. My regular work study job was at the Fl State Museum where I got to know Wayne King, who had been at the Bronx before moving south. When I finished my degree Fred Antonio gave me a job a p/t job in Sanford FL, and when my girlfriend finished her degree she wanted to move to New York, so I thought I'd go back there for a year. At the time I was going to work for my dad, but literally a week after we arrived in Montecello, where my parents were living then, my dad dropped dead. Long story short, I'd come up from FL with a large collection of venomous snakes that I used in shows, and it was November, and there was an ice storm, and the week of my dad's funeral his hired man let the kerosene heaters go out in the barn killing all the snakes. After that I needed to stay close to my mother for a while, so the Bronx was a good fit. A couple years later when my girlfriend was no longer in the picture I decided that New York was fun -- particularly BAC -- but I reckoned if I signed up with the Peace Corps they were surely send me to Africa and that would be even better. Of course instead they sent me to the zoo in Tegucigalpa, Honduras. And Hell, in retrospect there were a lot more circuses and carnivals in Central America and learning to speak Spanish worked out pretty well. Hope to be on the road with somebody in 2008.

Ben

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

I'd be interested to hear what the resident tiger folks have to say about the San Francisco Zoo incident. It seems like an impossible jump to me. I wonder if someone left a back gate open and the zoo decided the liability would be less if they could prove it wasn't negligence on the part of an employee.

HM

Anonymous said...

The SF story just gets weirder. They announced today that the wall is 12.5 feet, not the AZA suggested 16 -- but it's too high for a real jump from the bottom of the moot. The likely scenario seems to be that all three victims hung around until closing, jumped the low chain link barrier and started tossing pine cones at the cat. Then one of them got the bright idea of sitting on the edge of the wall trying to get the cat to jump. The legs dangling down puts the height to a purchase point at under ten feet. The zoo is keeping quiet and they aren't handling this well, changing too many "facts" every other day. Prevailing theory seems to be that the cat came right up those legs and over the wall. Hit the kid she killed as he went back over the chain link, then followed the blood trail of the leg dangler and his friend as they ran for the snack bar. I'd guess the running was as much of a factor as blood splatter. The height of the enclosure wall probably hurts the park even if the victims were to blame. But the real fault probably goes back to holiday scheduling and lack of manpower herding visitors toward the main gate. And that could happen anywhere. The fact is that idiots get killed in zoos (or circuses) climbing into enclosures, and this wasn't much different than walking up on the wrong elephant or playing cuddles with the polar bear. What's nuts is that the Bay Area parks have been worse than most when it comes to making nice with activists -- even in hiring -- and the same activists are already screaming on this one.

When I was a kid my mom had an ocelot that waged war with her dogs for years and left all of us with scars. My dad had cougars for school shows and they didn't get to "play" in the house because it was understood that the dogs wouldn't survive that. In the early 1970's when my folks reared several bigger cats for the Pittsburgh Zoo I remember that first "cute" tiger and how sternly he told us, "You don't play with tigers."

You just don't.

Nor do you throw pine cones.

Bob Cline said...

This resident tiger folk has been asked a half a dozen times by the local friends and neighbors already.

The very simple and straight forward answer is "I wasn't there. I have no idea and wouldn't even want to speculate. Let the proper people involved do their jobs."

Bob

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Mr. Cline,
I agree. I have been answering same question with same answers, to friends, and "jumpy" neighbors. It is hard to not assume a human error, but I would hate to speculate, having never even seen the enclosure.
I made sure to bring the jumpiest neighbors by the house, and show them the roof on my compound. That was their favorite part of the tour.

Anonymous said...

A sad case for the boy who was killed, his injured friends and the tiger.

I can't help but wonder if maybe some zoos weren't so adamantly opposed to the idea of hiring those who had practical knowledge and experience around big cats- "those" circus people- maybe accidents like this would happen less often. The degrees are fine, and useful- but I have some sour grapes knowing I wouldn't be able to even get a job as a keeper in a major zoo because I did not graduate college.

I applied to Animal Kingdom in 1998 and they told me to take a hike. Go figure.

I heard on the news Tatiana was the same tiger that ripped up that girl's arm last year. None of the grooms I've had in more than three decades, or myself, has ever been hurt around the cages.
That should count for something.

I guess I'm saying that experience DOES count for something. John Illig told me an Alber Rix story.
He said at the Hagenbeck Zoo nearly a hundred years ago, they did "tests" to see how high the cats could really jump before building the moated enclosures. Putting meat on a cable, and sailing it across the pens, stuff like that. These were real animal people, who understood animal behavior. I don't know if they had degrees or not, but it was a good, practical idea.

So, I don't know what happened either, but I think it's quite likely the tiger folk on the blog probably know more about tiger behavior than the architect who designed the enclosure, or the guy who approved it.

Or maybe some animal rights nut wanted to give the tiger a Christmas present and "set it free". If Paul Harvey was around, we'd know "... the REST of the story".

Anonymous said...

Wait a second, I'm mixed up on the year I was dissed by Disney. It was 1996, after I'd returned from Japan the first time. The person who interviewed me said it would be approximately 16 months before Animal Kingdom opened to the public. I thought, great! I can get in on the ground floor. But, alas, it was not to be.

I was told I needed a Bachelor's Degree in biology, zoology, or business management; plus six months experience "hands on".
REALLY? SIX MONTHS? um, ok; how about we swap the degree for 20+ years experience, I suggested. Ooo well, where have you worked? they asked. "Various circuses" I replied, and he basically said don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

I was........ MIFFED.
Until I got my next cat job. :-)

Anonymous said...

To Pat White. I am sure the person that interviewd you for that Animal Kindom job was and is the same Reid [Reed], what the hell his name is, and he was quite vocal in not wanting any circus animal people working there, who is now the VP for Feld ENT. and in charge of all Ringling animal operations. I believe he was subsequently released from his high fallutin position with Disney. He dont't know how to tie a "half hitch" or chain up an elephant. He has or is writing a paper on the care, handling and training of elephants as a guidline for all employees to use and has not interviewed any one in our industry who would be extremely kinowledgable on the subject. Too bad, as I understand that the Ringling elephant operations could use some input from experienced people to co-inside with some of their most knowledgable people who seem to be held to ainority.

Anonymous said...

Pat the guy from Disney that didn't want you or any other circus animal person around is now the same guy who is VP in charge of all Ringling animal operations and is , or has prepared a paper guidline on care, handling and TRAINING of elephants for all employees to abide by. What a morale booster he is. His name is Bruce Reid, or something like that. Amazing who Mr. Feld hires.

Buckles said...

I wouldn't mind getting a job like that but I don't work cheap.
When I say $35 a week and cook house, I don't mean...........etc.
That would be twice what I make on the Blog.

Bob Karczewski said...

It is amazing how a lot of the "executives" of different types of businesses put a higher priority on having a degree, rather than the practical experience that most often is more beneficial to the business. It probably won't change anytime soon.

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Maybe 10 years or so ago, I had the pleasure of "auditioning" for a zoo job taking care of two old elephants. Apparently, one of the elephants had takin to knocking keepers into the moat, trying to make a human bridge for escape. I suppose they figured a show guy being eaten would be easier for the PR department, then a degree holding biology major. Somehow, the "Executive", who knew nothing about elephants, but a lot about manipulating humans, convinced me to do something I am embarrassed to have done. I am happy to have survived. I won't be detailed, lets just say, given a few more minutes, I could have been another plank in the escape bridge.

Anonymous said...

News in San Francisco today is reporting that the survivors of the tiger are refusing to talk with the police. As they remain in hospital it looks like they won't make statements until after they are released and find an attorney.

Anonymous said...

I was in banking and office mgmt most of my working life (hated both) and saw the same thing. It drove me nuts...seeing very capable people, dedicated people with years of experience let go for some yahoo with a sheepskin and his head in a dark place. It saddens me to hear that this holds true for circuses and zoos as well. How do you equate years of hands on with big cats, elephants, etc with somebody with a degree who doesn't know the difference between a lion and a tiger. Ask Vincent Von Duke about a certain guy who came to inspect his cats, etc.

With you and for you all.

Paul Gutheil

Anonymous said...

Heini Hediger was probably the brightest academic associated with zoos and circuses, and certainly as important an animal behaviorist as Konrad Lorenz. Dr Hediger's Psychology and Behavior of Animals in Zoos and Circuses serves up the clearest explanation of just how space and spatial relations work in a ring or arena (from the point of view of the animal being trained) and still provides the best "answer" to why trained animals in a circus or zoo are psychologically healthier than captive animals that are not trained, great counter arguments against activists. Hediger's other big book, Man and Animal in The Zoo is still the classic when it comes to how people behave in zoos. And in various papers he fought some bloody battles on who should really work with animals and who shouldn't. Hediger always favored the practical over the strictly theoretical. Hediger loathed preprepared carnivore diets. (Pushed by Philly Zoo, among other places.) Hediger argued that not only did "carnivore diets" disallow cats behave in a naturalistic fashion as they would with horse meat and bone, but it also meant that a park would likely eliminate a job like park butcher, generally an older worker who had been around for a long time and who had practical animal experience, replacing that person with someone with limited or only theoretical experience.

There's nothing wrong with a zookeeper with a degree, but unless that degree is from the Bio Parks Program in Gainesville, no degree comes with any built-in experience that makes you better at holding a rake, pushing a wheelbarrow, or clamping off the end of a hose, or surviving a USDA inspection. The practice of some parks to hire entry level staff from volunteers who have in theory gained experience over several years is all well and good, but at least in some parks here in the west it's led to hiring some individuals with a some attachment to an animal rights agenda, as well as a degree. Any college level knowledge of zoology or ethology isn't worth much if it's tainted by a highly anthropomorphic philosophical ideology. Places like Oakland and Detroit might as well be satellite offices for PETA. In the long run it can’t possibly be good for the animals or the public. A smart kid who works hard and thinks that zoos matter or circuses matter will with proper training learn to be a groom or keeper, whatever his or her education. The “animal lover” who sees only the animals apart from the role of the institution supporting them it seems to me is missing a puzzle piece.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Mr. Herriott, for the story. Eleven years after the fact, maybe I'll stop taking the incident so personally. That name sounds familiar. This same guy wrote a guideline for handling elephants on Ringling? Did he run into a lot of elephants behind his desk? Remind me to sit up in the cheap seats next time I see the show.

It also bugged me because 8 years earlier, in 1988, I was brought into Disneyland with my cat act for Circus Fantasy, and it was well received. Then a few years later at Disneyworld, I'm not qualified to clean cages. I just didn't get it.

However, on the upside, I think of all the places I've been and the wonderful animals I've met since that time. I know everything works out for the best.

There is some meloncholy reassurance in hearing it happens in other businesses too. Unfortunately there often comes a time when a price has to be paid for ousting- or not hiring in the first place- experienced people. Even if they ain't got no book learnin'.

Just for the record, I know how to tie a half hitch and chain up an elephant; but I wouldn't claim for a moment to know peanuts about elephants...

Anyway, I'm determined to keep plugging along, God willing, for as long as I'm able- there's always something new and interesting on the horizon!

Happy New Year to the Blogmaster and readers!

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Mr. Trumble,

??"anthropomorphic philosophical ideology"??

Please,
I am but a lowly shoveler, who only finished the 8th grade. When using the really BIG words, can you translate to goof? Then myself and a few others will know what you are talkin about...

Anonymous said...

Ben, I just read your last comment, I'll give you a big "Amen!" Good for you. Well said.

I have a copy of Hediger's book too (Psychology of Animals in Zoos and Circuses) and agree there nothing in it that doesn't make sense. That's what's lacking sometimes regarding who's qualified to work around animals- common sense.

Buckles said...

I think the point is being missed here. I feel confident in saying that everyone with Feld Entertainment from Kenneth Feld to the back door man are well aware that Mr. Reed couldn't lead an elephant to water if it was on fire.
Yet through come complicated series of events he is considered the world's utmost authority on such matters and whose convoluted statements at the upcoming Trial might prove invaluable.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Cainan, I believe I've seen you reference some pretty serious literature here and there... But perhaps I ought have said in place of ...anthropomorphic philosophical ideology.... "idiots who think Bambi to be a true story." Having been a shit shoveler in one form or another much of my life, whether real or surreal I appreciate your point that some things are better phrased directly

Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Yes Mr. Trumble,
It was in jest, but it does sound much better the second way. Speaking of literature, I am trying to find more from an Aussie author named, Scott Lithgow. I am hoping our friends "down under" maybe knew him, he was an animal trainer, but maybe just horses and dogs. I just finished his book "Training and Working Dogs For Quiet Confident Control of Stock". This guy has some great tips on moving and working animals at a distance (He could have easily trained a cat act) Maybe Mr. Perry or others know of his writings, if there are more, I can't find them.

Anonymous said...

I've known Bruce Read for over 30 years. He's quite knowledgable about some animal management but he never appeared to have much interest in training. I don't think he ever went to a circus even when Ringling showed at the Arena, walking distance from the St. Louis Zoo. He has long been an advocate of writing down information on animal care (not a bad thing). I've considered his main value to Feld to be his connection to AZA and zoo people. Having the Ringling elephant breeding program as part of the AZA's Spieces Survival Program could be valuable for both parties. Does Bruce understand elephant training? My guess would be not intuitively and if he were interested in entertainment he kept it well hidden. Can he produce a valuable text on elephant care and management? I believe he can IF he gets enough information from a variety of sources, not just a stack of books. I'll be interested in his finished product, it could valuable or a repetitious waste of paper. I'm sure Bruce will try to produce a classic text; he might and I hope he will.

On college degrees and animal care: I have a bachelors degree but my best acts were before I got it. It didn't make me a better trainer or caretaker. It didn't make me worse either and I could explain training in scientific terminology -- I'm glad I got the degree. I know several well-respected zoo animal men (even Directors) that didn't have degrees. These people might be more inclined to hire people with wide animal experience than just taking the quick look for a degree. I do work at Animal Kingdom but not in Animal Care -- I'm retired, been there and done that. I can make an educated guess that when DAK was beginning to hire they had high hopes of hiring experienced people with degrees, most places do. After a while reality raises it's head and the value of somebody who can get the job done becomes a priority. Who can get hired now at DAK, or many large zoos, I don't know but requirement can change. As I heard a circus producer supposedly once said, "I'll never hire them, unless I need'em."

GaryHill said...

Pat, your story about how Disney treated you is about the same I went through when I was "dismissed" from CW by Bill Ketchum. While I was waiting for Jewell and Buckles to leave and go on the road with the Blue Unit, I ventured down to Tampa and attempted to hire on at Busch Gardens. Figured I could shovel shit there as well as the next guy, but to no avail! Apparently my trip to Africa in 74 for Great Adventure made me too "expensive" for their budget? Heck, I never even asked about money?

Anonymous said...

Ben: You might be interested in the comments in response to an op-ed piece in the Palm Beach Post, FL, newspaper this week by a program host of an NPR outlet in Tampa. The writer touts his having interviewed numerous experts on animals while at the same time discouraging people from seeing Ringling Bros. or any other circus that uses animals. Another animal-fights person, who identifies herself as being with the American Working Group for National Policy, Inc., in Boca Raton, has dissed about everybody who offers an opposing point of view--and BOY IS SHE FLAMING. Another responder by the name of Jennifer (does that name sound familiar?) accuses me of being on Feld's payroll. Ben, with your background in animal behavior, you might want to weigh in on the comments. You can find it on Goggle News--Circus News, under the herading "For the love of animals, avoid the circus." Last time I checked, it was on page 6 of the Google circus news postings.

Lane Talburt

GaryHill said...

Another sad fact about zoo cats is when they do happen to escape their enclosers they don't know how to get back in! When we were in Norfork at the Scope building, Jewell had a young lion named Murphy that wasn't completely in the act at that time and he was in the cages in the back. Our cageboy, a guy I named Coffeebreak, was cleaning the cages while we did the act. He forgot to shut a guillotine door and Murphy was loose! Showgirls and clowns were squealling and he ran under some of the elephants. Coffeebreak came running up behind me and told me he was loose and I told Jewell and I hollered "Hit the hole"! The cats all got out and I was on the run to the back where I grabbed a cage and found Murphy in a corner surrounded by elephant and horse guys with pitchforks. Soon as Murphy saw his cage, he flew into it and you could tell he was happy to be back in it!

Anonymous said...

Gary: Your BG story is right up the same alley. Did I miss the vote on whether "circus" should be voted a dirty word?

(I have a Murphy too; though the same color, he's a miniature dachshund- not a big deal when he escapes!)

Maybe we should all get together and do an animal park; we'd have pleasing state of the art exhibits, and top of the line shows. Provide a place for retired show animals to live too? (that's something that really bothers me). Having "circus" in your resume would get you special consideration, rather than escorted to the door. Who could we get to back it? Does Warren Buffet like circus animal acts?

I think I spend to much time by myself letting my mind wander.

Anonymous said...

Although not a "zoo" in the traditional sense, I wonder how many "animal people" got their start at Jungle Larry Tetzlaffs facility. Come on Bob Cline, comprise a list.
Wade Burck

Anonymous said...

This zoo thing is going to be interesting...on the news it was revealed that the two injured parties are 1. hostile towards the police investigators and 2. both parties have criminal backgrounds.

I wonder if the "TIGER THREE" somehow opened a door as a prank...let's wait and see.

Anonymous said...

Hi Wade,

Long time no see...;)
Need to talk to you.
You can email me from here:
www.HeroicFilms.com

Happy Holidays from Canada!
Barb

And yes, I'm sure most 'real' animal folks would agree that there's obviously more to this tiger tale...

Bob Cline said...

Hello Wade,
Wow, Thanks for asking about a list. You are right in that a lot of people don't realize the impact the Tetzlaff family has had on the Circus over the years. I'm not their historian either but a former employee and good friend.

Those in the Circus Industry that worked at Jungle Larry's and Carribbean Gardens early in their careers that I know of are;
Pat White,
Roy Wells,
Wade Burck,
John Illig,
Patti Holt,
Darryl Atkinson,
Mike Cecare,
and myself.

I'm sure I probably missed a few, to whom I apologize for not listing here.
Bob

Roger Smith said...

We had this zoo diet salesman come to Jungleland in 1967 or '68 trying to tell us we "knew" we didn't want to continue the blood and guts operation of a dead animal delivery operation, the hard task of cutting a ton of meat into feeds per day, the removal of bones (which we sold to California Rendering), or the work of maintaining a meatcutting house and the attenuating hide pile (we sold 400 hides at a time to the highest bidding tannery). He told Uncle Ben he "knew" he'd rather have happier animals eating his factory-made diet. Unc had him watch us feed 3 strings, 46 cats, the real thing, with the cats clawing furiously for each cut. Then we shoveled this "diet" into the 10 cages of the old Leopard String. Those cats had just seen others getting fed and were ravenous to have breakfast served. Ten minutes went by. They snubbed the "diet" out of hand. Saying "To hell with this", Unc raked it out and I came with the wheelbarrow and fed bone-in cuts which were hooked in and coveted viciously. The salesman departed, shamed to silence by Mother Nature.

I've seen zoo cats sitting in obvious disgust (my observation comes from that word used in these contributions--experience), trying to ignore the zoo diet. When they eventually approached it, they couldn't carry it away to seclusion, as it fell apart. If they left it, the other guy might get it, and their frustration over its consistency was sad to witness. Zoo hirees explained their attitude to me more than once--"This is it. We know you hate it, but this is all you get from now on. Eat it, or starve, you son-of-a-bitch." These are people you'd hope would never give an animal food it has to be starved onto, but this is what I came to expect of the beard-and-bush-jacket boys. I would not hire one of them.

I've noticed when such people want to assume this sort of power, they choose the big cats to offend. Perhaps they derive a distorted sense of power, of control, over an animal they hold in contempt out of fear. If they hold briefcases full of degrees, no piece of paper on their walls makes them animal people--just zoo employees.

The worst of it is, the zoo man is bereft forever of 50% of animal knowledge, and he knows not that he knows not. He can quote you chapter and verse of any animal encyclopedia, telling you what the animal is. Never in his career can he relate the other half of animal experience--he can't tell you WHO the animal is. The trainer can, animal for animal. The zoo man, never.

These are the people who send us away. They don't want true experience embarrassing their bookshelves.

Roger Smith

Anonymous said...

When I went to work in Tegucigalpa Honduras there were two things that nobody mentioned my first day on the job. The first was that every morning I needed to go by the Natural Resources Ministry to get a roll of cash, because every working in the park was paid cash (about five dollars) at the end of each day. The second was that I needed to buy several horses every week for the carnivores. I remember walking around the park thinking I was God's answer to the heathens because there were no signs anywhere, and I'd actually written a paper on signage in zoos; and there was no microscope in the place and how impressed everybody would be when I taught them to do fecal flotations. Around 4:30 in the afternoon one of the guys came up to me and mentioned that it was almost time to go home, and what were they supposed to feed the cats? This was when I discovered that I'd been keeping some poor fellow with a broken down horse waiting outside the park all day because I didn't know that it was my job to give him $20 and give the rifle in the office to the man who did the butchering. About a half an hour after that the entire staff (ten guys) lined up in front of the office to get paid, and I didn't have the payroll. I'm well trained now and my wife reminds me periodically that I'm not too smart -- but back then, on that day, I was the stupidest gringo in all of Honduras, and maybe the dumbest zookeeper anywhere. I did learn to cut up a horse that night, but for several months I think the guys mostly came to work waiting to see if I would manage to be that boneheaded again.