Friday, August 10, 2007

Hannover Zoo 2002 #1


Scan10191, originally uploaded by bucklesw1.

"Nicolai" son of "Tusko" and "Kitty", originally trained by Charlie Gray and was worked in free contact at Hannover in Amsterdam.
Where he is now, they work him in protected contact.

Posted by Buckles at 8/10/2007 06:11:00 AM

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

he is listed in two places fathered by Buke or Tusko... has anybody stepped up to clarify?

This bull is now the sole bull at Amersdam - so far he havent gotten the female pregnant yet.

10 August, 2007 15:28
Anonymous said...

Hannover Zoo was founded in 1865. They bought their first elephant in 1872.

Due to World-War II, all the elephants were transferred to Hermann Ruhe in Alfeld between 1944 and 1946).

Due to the amount of animals, and also probably the competence of their keepers, Hannover was fortunate in breeding elephants, and was the record keeper in Europe for a long time. This was also partly because they kept bulls in free contact, by means of the head elephant keeper Wolfgang Ramin, who had worked with the bulls before at Circus Knie.

10 August, 2007 15:31
Anonymous said...

Well the Buke/Tusko thing was cleared up. I contacted a friend. I was informed that this bull is in fact sired by Buke, not Tusko because Tusko started breeding at Rockford after "all bulls left" and the dates do not match with the conception dates for this bull. So far as we know there is no calves concieved at Rockton sired by Tusko. There are calves sired by Rex, Buke and Calvin so far. The friend did say that this bull turned dangerous a couple of years before being moved to Amersdam hence protected contact, Calvin is at Hannover in protected contact as well, all of the females are in free contact - there are two pygmy elephant cows there and one even had a calf with Calvin.

10 August, 2007 16:10
Anonymous said...

as of people working with bulls hands on, it seems they have stopped now because of workman's comp and insurance being really high.

10 August, 2007 16:12
Anonymous said...

I usually don't acknowledge an Anonymous, but in this case I hope your "friend" is legitimate. Otherwise I have to give Jimmy Hall back his most prized artifact, an autygraffed 8X10 of Herta Klauser, I won in the bet. He looked so much like Buke, to make sure I layed on the floor, and looked up at him. It was definitly Buke. Kidding aside, it is very troublesome that a sire, or a dam for that matter, would be
wrongly entered in a Stud book. We are not looking at 100's of years of breeding, with 1000's of offspring. We are looking at a small, small core breeding group of animals. Anybody have any thought's on "what the hell happened here." Wade Burck

10 August, 2007 17:04
Anonymous said...

Charlie Grey is probably one of the most competent people working, and breeding elephants in North America today, so it is with all due respect that I ask; why would they bred Calvin to a Pygmy elephant? That's insane. Wade Burck

10 August, 2007 17:15
Anonymous said...

Anonymous I don't know who your friend is but he obviously does not know what he is talking about. Tusko sired 2 calves here, Buke sired 1, Calvin sired 4, Rex sired 3 so far.
Charlie Gray

10 August, 2007 19:15
Anonymous said...

Some notes I did abt Hermann Ruhe, which may be of interest for US elephant people who has heard abt Louis Ruhe in New York:

(from my website http://www.elephant.se/location2.php?location_id=310)

Firma Ruhe was one of the leading animal trade companies, founded in 1880 by Ludwig Ruhe (in America Louis Ruhe) and closed down in 1993.

Ludwig Ruhes company was taken over by his sons: Hermann Ruhe who stayed in Alfeld and Bernhard Ruhe who managed the Ruhe Animal Farm in New York.

Hermann Ruhe Sr died in 1923, and his son Hermann Ruhe Jr took over. Three generations of Ruhe operated worldvide, with local offices in London and New York, and provided hundred of elephants to Zoos and circuses.

Between 1931 and 1971 Firma Hermann Ruhe rented the entire Hannover Zoo, and founded Ruhr Zoo in Gelsenkirchen in 1948.

Why the elephant swere brought from Hannover Zoo to Ruhe in Alfeld, was measurments of security, bombs were falling, in Berlin Zoo at 22 November 1943, 7 elephants died, and the only surviving elephant was the bull Siam, bought from Circus krone in 1933.

In the same year at least three elephants died in Munich Zoo during th bombings, among them Adam, europes first captive born african elephant.

In Alfeld all the elephants survived as far as I know, this was a remote place without strategic military value.

Meanwhile, Circus Krone in Munich, (http://www.elephant.se/location2.php?location_id=21) did the same, I believe they brought their entire elephant herd, (except the cows Betja, Rani och Birma which because of food shortage, was send to Schönbrunn Zoo in Vienna, where they died during the bombings) went with the stable master Harry Philadelphia to Bad Reichenhall near the austrian border. Nine elephants survived...

So Ruhe did a good thing taking his elephats away from Hannover city. In the seventies Ruhe bought from Circus Knie in switzerland (among others) the two bulls Moti (asian) and tembo (african), as well as cows, which became breeding bulls under the command of Wolfgang Ramin, who had worked at Knie. He kept both in free contact. Another Knie bull, Siam, went to Paris Zoo where he sired at least 15 babies.

Tembos son Kibo is breding bull today in Boras zoo in sweden, and Moti had numerous calfs, among thm the bull Ramon, who sired at least nine calfs in Rotterdam Zoo in Netherlands.

So, apart from importing and exporting hundreds? of elephants, Ruhe also has a finger in the captive breeding of elephants in Europe. Its also an intersting fact, that during those years, most elephant births was from bulls that had previously been on circus.

Today, there are some stuffed animals on display in the museum in Alfeld. Hermann Ruhe Jr died 14 december 2003.

Dan Koehl

10 August, 2007 20:57
Anonymous said...

I am having a problem with this Tusko/Buke deal and am hoping somebody can help. How is it possible to get a Sire wrong in an official Stud Book, with a species of animal, with such a limited genetic base? Egyptian Arabian horses have been bred for 100's of years, with 1000's of offspring, by Desert Bedouins, and there is speculation that they may have made one error with a Sire 95 years ago. Wade Burck

10 August, 2007 23:11
Anonymous said...

Wade, The "official" SSP studbook has listed Nikolai's sire as Tusko and dam as Kitty as it should be. There are some "unofficial" publications that have been given incorrect information out there. As to the "pygmy" elephants, the Hanover Zoo imported some young Asian elephants from Borneo and they are part of their Asian elephant breeding program.
Charlie Gray

11 August, 2007 00:16
Anonymous said...

Charlie, great to hear from you, and thank you for your comments. What Stud book was quoted from was what I was trying to learn. What other "publications" are there? SSP I would assume is the final word. By you quoting "Pygmy", can I assume that you have a problem with that term also? Breeding an Asian male to a "pygmy", seems to make as much sense as breeding a Dromidary to a Bachtrian. Wade Burck
P.S. Will you be at the 50 year birthday celebration?

11 August, 2007 08:17
Anonymous said...

Thank you Charlie, for finally sorting out the confusion about Buke and Tusko as father.

Wade, since you have a problem with that term Pygmy elephant, not only west african elephants are refered to as pygmy elephants, but also the Borneo subspecies of asian elephant, hence the confusion. And they are just relatively smaller, neither breeding or anything else will cause a problem crossing a borneo elephant with one from the main Asian continent.

11 August, 2007 10:29
Casey McCoy Cainan said...

Like breeding Siberian and Bengal tigers together till they are the same species, wasn't a problem?

11 August, 2007 11:16
Anonymous said...

Hey Wade,First time I have heard of the 50th birthday. I guess I am not on the A-list.
Charlie Gray

11 August, 2007 13:42
Anonymous said...

another source is www.asianelephant.net - Buke is listed as the sire there... it is also quite reliable. Another website is www.elephant.se but I do not consider it as reliable as it contradicats my first hand information. My friend is very reliable with scores and scores of information of both asian and african in USA and Europe, even who has them and where they are, training, performing, and so on. it would just blow you away. so his information is very complete and detailed and has been with elephants for years and years. This friend used to live very close to this elephant when he went to Europe. In fact he is going to the two facilities to correspond with the keepers right now.

I do not dispute Mr. Gray, I do agree with Mr. Burke that he is one of the most competent assets to the captive elephant in the world.

Personally, I do not know why they bred the pygmy elephant to Calvin. Europe does things differently than we do here in America. There is also inbreeding. Regarding to the pygmy - she did fine with the pregnancy and giving birth. Here is the picture of the two pgymy elephants with one normal Asian elephant on the far left with the calf being out of the pygmy elephant mother on the far right, the second left is the younger pgymy elephant. http://www.asianelephant.net/hannover/Hanno43.jpg

Another picture for comparasion. http://www.asianelephant.net/hannover/Hanno31.jpg - the two pygmy elephants are the two next to last.

Mr. Gray - If you do not mind, please do tell who Tusko sired at your facility so there will be no further confusion at the face value. Thank you.

I do have more pictures that are not posted on the internet of regarding several of the mentioned elephants.

11 August, 2007 14:01
Anonymous said...

Dan, I have no problem with Pygmy elephants, per se, I have a problem with the mixing of species and/or sub-species, if we are going to keep a stud book, in an effort to keep it "pure". Yes, the African sub-species look's to be a smaller version, supposedly due to enviormental conditions. The Asian Pygmy sub-species visually looks to be more dwarfy, rather then smaller. There is limited material available about them, and would appreciate learning more. Would the DNA testing of an offspring of this cross, knowing nothing about either parent, show us that it came from one normal, and one Pygmy parent? Wade Burck

Casey, Breeding African leopards to Asian Leopards just for the sake of having something with spots, is the same as breeding Siberian tigers to Bengal tigers, just to have something with stripes. It is an exercize in futility, if you are going to keep "official Species Stud Books", to keep each species "pure", and untainted. Breeding for a certain carecteristic, such as white tiger's does not require the keeping of a "pure Stud book". Hell, breed Bassett Hound's to Sumatrian's if neccessary, until you lock in the desireable gene you are searching for, and then clean it up to a set standard, that you need or a registry dictates. Should you keep a pure Bengal/Indian White tiger Stud Book. Absolutly, as it historically occured. Should you include Siberian crossed white stock. Not on your life. Wade Burck

11 August, 2007 15:16
Anonymous said...

Dan, one more thing. What is this confusion there seem's to be of various Stud books, and or publications? Anonymous, please weigh in with your source, unless your source is Anonymous also. If that the case forget it. Charlie Grey and Dan Koehl seem more valid. Wade Burck

11 August, 2007 15:25
Casey McCoy Cainan said...

I just find it odd, if these "Pygmy" elephants are their own sub-species, and they are few in numbers, that they would breed one to a rather large Asian elephant. Wouldn't it make more sense to try and breed it to another "pygmy" or are these really not a sub-species of their own?

11 August, 2007 16:23
Anonymous said...

Hey guys stop fighting, you agree. You both say that if distinctions such as "Pygmy" are to be kept elephants (and tigers) should be bred with their "own kind".

12 August, 2007 04:56
Anonymous said...

I don't know which Anonymous this is, but where do you see a fight here? We are discussing an issue, presenting fact's as we know them, coming closer to the truth, so that those of us who don't know (me) can learn something. If it was a fight, you would note more sarcastic jelousy, and less fact finding. Wade Burck

12 August, 2007 08:05
Anonymous said...

The North American SSP(Species Survival Program) and the European equivalent the EEP manage their populations as Asian elephants making no distinction as to sub species or race. Imports of elephants from range countries are very difficult and expensive. Maintaining a breeding group of elephants takes a lot of resources. Female elephants can start developing reproductive pathologies in their early 20's making them less likely to reproduce successfully if they have never had a calf previously. Elephants do not have litters. If a female elephant produces 1 calf every 4-6 years you are doing pretty well. If your aim is to maintain a breeding population of Asian elephants in captivity the sub species/race issue needs to be left out.
Charlie Gray

12 August, 2007 10:46
Casey McCoy Cainan said...

No fighting here, I try to not argue about anything not involving money. I am still suspicious that these are just small elephants, or maybe dwarfs. I have worked several African elephants that were very small, but not really dwarfs, and I doubt, a separate species. Terranova has Kamba who is tiny, as was the male he had Moxie. Franzen has Magoo who is tiny as well. Though I have no "factual proof" I think these elephants were just pulled from the tit too soon maybe, but not a "pygmy specie" . Now having never seen an Asian small enough to be a "pygmy", I am curious to why it is so small. Genetic flaw? Short on groceries? Or possibly, its own Species? Either way, if it is genetic, you would want to be careful what you bred it to.

12 August, 2007 11:10
Anonymous said...

Charlie, thank's for the insight. I remember Angus, as being distinctivly different, and being told he was a Bush elephant. There has been a bit more published on Bush elephants, and he was as the material described. The only picture's I have seen are the one's that Wayne Jackson sent to Buckles. Described as 4 ft. tall. Were they youngsters? The dwarf features I could see were difficult to "look past". Where would there be more information/pictures available of these Pygmy elephants? Wishing you the best, and thanks for your input. Wade Burck

12 August, 2007 11:50
Unknown said...

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28 July, 2009 01:04

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