Sunday, November 12, 2006

Regarding the use of the Ringling title!


There was a prop hand on the Orton Bros. Circus in the late 1920's named Verne "Dutch" Lidke who later married my cousin Gracie Orton and as was often the case, took the name Dutch Orton.
Later they somehow got into the sway pole business and were very successful. As it turned out, Dutch was a pretty sharp guy and had the trademarks, "Aerial Ortons", "Sensational Ortons", "Swing an Sway the Orton Way", etc. Copywritten under his name and after their divorce, Gracie continued with a sway pole act but was never allowed to use her own name (Orton) in the above format.

Maybe some of you people in the UK can help me with this photo of Dutch and his second wife Dorie at a command performance. I think the gentleman at left is one of the Mills brothers. I once was introduced to Cyril Mills at the Club in Sarasota but it was many years later and he brought up the Powers Elephants and the Adele Nelson Elephants (both American Acts) that he held in high esteem.

Posted by Buckles at 11/12/2006 11:24:00 AM

20 comments:

Anonymous said...

Imagine Mr Ringling North knows the value of his name and talked to intellectual property attorneys before deciding to get into the circus business. Probably can't call teh hsow RINGLING, but can title it John Ringling North III presents the Kelly Miller Circus. As Buckles said, the RINGLING part might be in bigger letters when it comes to show paint. Historically Ringling certain battled to keep competing titles off the road after buying Forepaugh, Sells, the Indiana shows. Some of those old titles H-W and Sells-Floto are still forever in limbo, though in the Feld era I doubt that anybody bothered to keep a lock on Sparks, or Robinson, etc. Seems like the trademark jewel has always been The Greatest Show On Earth (t) as much as the RBBB. I think that James Bailey used to pay the Barnum heirs for the use of the name in the title. I imagine the Bros bought it outright when they bought out the Bailey estate. I wondered if there was still a Barnum estate several years ago when Feld took out the tent show, since it didn't seem like Barnum outside of the RBBB title would be covered under the same original sale. You can trademark something like "Barnum's" but can't copyright a simple title. Mr Ringling North's attorney's would likely argue that using his own name in a title doesn't violate any Feld held trademark. On top of that, who would want the press that comes from news stories of Feld/RBBB attempting to strip the name off a small tent show owned by a legitimate Ringling heir? Of course courts like precedent, and the Ben Wallace vrs Carl Hagenbeck suit found against the man who actually had the name. But Hagenbeck was far away in Germany, and few were ever slicker than Wallace.

12 November, 2006 14:16
Anonymous said...

WHEW!! What a blogger day. So Much going on!!! Had to do the RHINE thing early. Boggles the mind that the circus has still got the power to get the blood raging. What a life style!!! Eat your heart out A/R. It really promises to be a great exiting year for the great circus of tomorrow. The FAT LADY hasn't sung yet.

12 November, 2006 16:06
Anonymous said...

Richard Reynolds says - - -

That's a young Elizabeth the Queen behind the two children, perhaps the boy is Charles, the current Price of Wales. Since Elizabeth is in fine health, Charles may be older than Edward VII when he finally ascended to the throne after the death of his "Mum" Queen Vitoria. Victoria liked circus perfomers and Barnum made a lot of hay from his appearnces with her.

I understand the current movie about the present Elizabeth is wonderful. It features Helen Mirren as the Queen. And she looks just like her.

12 November, 2006 18:53
Anonymous said...

Now Im no expert by any means... but As long as JRN3 doesn't use Ringling Brothers Barnum and bailey he can use what every he wants, right. If he wan't to call it the Ringling North Circus why can't he. It's his name. i would fight that

12 November, 2006 19:33
Anonymous said...

while we're all speculating on what names John Ringling North might use, and i think this is one of the most important things that could happen in today's circus world, it still might also be affected by a "no compete" clause in the original Feld contract. These clauses are normal when businesses are bought and sold and both Irvin and Israel Feld were masters at making sure contracts covered them in all cases. This might affect the title and also the route the show could play, which would keep it kelly-miller size. All that aside. a new ringling circus could be the best thing yet, as well as a new performer who could hit the box office level of a clyde beatty.

12 November, 2006 22:38
Anonymous said...

The "no compete" clauses in most contacts have a finite life spelled out in the document. 5 years is pretty standard, 10 is unusual. Thirty years would be virtually unheard of. Additionally, the waters are muddied by the simple fact that Irvin Feld himself sold the circus...then bought it back. Strictly speaking. it might be argued that today's RBBB was purchased from Mattel, not the Ringling heirs. So the heirs are off the hook in terms of competition, use of the Ringling name, and all that. Kelly Miller isn't really in "competition" with teh Red or Blue anyway, though I suppose were another "Ringling" circus out there, the Red and Blue might be forced to be a bit more circus-like, fearing the comparison. Undre David Rawls cretainly KM has been much loved, and has always put on a good show. With very talented people like Jim Royal rumoured to be involved with the new management perhaps it will become an even better show; in which case I suppose it could threaten the Gold Unit. It would be nice to think that this is the first time since Cole went out in 1935 with Beatty, that a "new" show has gone out with such an instantly recognizable "brand" and a wealth of "good will" all predicated on a name and the stories you can attach to it.

13 November, 2006 00:01
Anonymous said...

It just occurs to me that Steve Irwin told us something and we should pay attention. The public wants to see the struggle between man and beast, or man against the elements, whatever they may be. Note the popularity of the TV survivor shows, the trilling NASCAR races. Who can do that better than the circus. Obviously those cutsey, lovey cat acts are boring. Lets see some bouncing male lions and snarling tigers and yes the gun, chair and whip. Give him all the protection he needs as he steps into the DEN OF FURY. From the safety cage. The hell with Animal rights people. They are such a small minority in regard to population and middle America is not remotely interested in their off the wall message. I would suggest a good looking guy with charisma,[no women need apply] and guts with five nice full bkack maned male lions and three tigers, in white boots and breeches. Very few tricks. Beatty didn't advertise any tricks. Good spinning tiger, roll over,stretch down together and alot of bouncing and protesting throughout. Have the guy watch tapes of Beatty to get the right idea. No bedspring arena, but aluminon bared, so lions can bounce him up against it. No sounds were ever better on a circus lot in the morning set up than a loud stakedriver and the roar and grunting of the lions and tigers heard all over the lot and down and across the street. The towners knew the circus was in town. Along with that lets bring em horses,acrobats,trapezes,clowns. Quit alibying. Bring em the thrills, beauty and excitement of the circus. Proudly proclaim, This is who we are and this is what we do. They will respond I'm sure and buy a ticket so we can put those god awful free kid tickets in the garbage can before they are ditributed. Steve Irwin did it big time and we need to take a page out of his book.

13 November, 2006 09:25
Anonymous said...

Who would ever believe that in circus operations the names Ringling and Hugo, Okla. would be synonymous.

13 November, 2006 09:27
Anonymous said...

In my comments about a cat act I forgot the Safety Cage and also the need for thre nice sized Asian Elephants.[leave the Africans in a zoo] pullin and pushing and raising the top and then with an elephant girl doing the Walkover, Cover and foot in the foot in the face and a fast whirl. Snappy, good looking broad can apply.

13 November, 2006 10:29
Anonymous said...

"NO WOMEN NEED APPLY" When you find "A GOOD LOOKING GUY WITH CHARM and TALENT" please tell us just who this might be! All the good guys are dead or TOO OLD. Blood and Guts is a GUY thing. Beauty and TALENT is a female thing. Who was the last MANLY LOOKING man you saw in the arena. They have all retired or died. A beautyfull YOUNG LADY given the right press would draw the people to the circus just as well as a blood and guts kind of guy. Probably more so.

13 November, 2006 11:16
Anonymous said...

john - you have hit the nail on the head. putting the excitement back into the circus and making a tent show something special would bring the crowds right back, expecially in the medium-sized and smaller towns. and giving people something they want and nothing that hurts them so that they will want your show back year after year - with the same title. hopefully john ringling north will understand this and hopefully the new beatty show will become a continuing version of the exciting beatty show we all loved

13 November, 2006 12:02
Anonymous said...

John Herriot, we need a voice coach for Cat Chorus on Cue, an exotic opera.

If you hype competition between male and female trainers, you might create a Noah's Ark effect -- fans need to see at least two of each kind of act, even if they have to buy tickets for two shows (said Mr. Barnum, after his wife gave him the idea).

13 November, 2006 14:52
Anonymous said...

Johnny Herriott's description is dead right and spot on. If I could get a deal like he depicts, I'd be back to work in the morning.

13 November, 2006 15:17
Anonymous said...

rebecca, A worderful manly looking cat guy now a days is Vincent Von Duke. Very manly

13 November, 2006 16:52
Anonymous said...

Who is Vincent Von Duke? Real name? Works for whom? Working now? Who,s cats? Pictures?

13 November, 2006 18:25
Anonymous said...

Vince Donoho is is real name. Works his own cats on Jordan World Circus. Was on Tarzan Zerbini and Circus Gatti, others as well. Does Shrine Dates in Spring and fall and Fair dates in the summer. I saw his act in April 4 lions and 2 tigers. Real good act.
http://www.njfair.com/popups/photosLionTigerShow.htm

13 November, 2006 19:11
Anonymous said...

I agree with the Col., an exciting, fighting act would really go over. People may feel they have to go along with the animal rights talk but deep down they'd really like to see a contest between man and beast. Can you imagine sitting in the Kelly-Miller tent when a big lion charges the trainer and lets out a mighty roar. You'd need to change your shorts.

The big problem may not finding a young, handsome, subjugator along the other suggested acts. Many areas of the country would eagerly support a wild animal show. But if you don't have people that know how to book and route the show, or a lot of money in the bank, in won't make it to the Georgia state line.

13 November, 2006 20:28
Anonymous said...

at a time like this, we realy miss floyd king, who could book and route any show in the world to make money -- as long as it wasn't his. as a general agent, mr. king was the all-time greatest.

14 November, 2006 02:29
Bob Cline said...

Bravo Jim A. That's what it is all about. These were the unsung heroes of every show. Most people never heard of them. But the booking and contract agents make or break a show every time the first truck starts up. Without them, a show never got started. Whether they did a good job or not. was the the direct result of the season's outcome.
Bob

14 November, 2006 06:04
B.E.Trumble said...

Second guessing routing and booking decisions kills a lot of hours standing around in the mud (or the dust)when business is poor. And in the words of every booker who has ever lived, "You've gotta park it somewhere." I don't know if anyone can come across as a genius season after season in an era when you really need to book so far in advance of the show just to meet regulatory standards and acquire needed permits. Today there are so many tools that should make things easier (communications, demographic information) but that said, I'm not sure that "modern" bookers as good at "reading" localized economic conditions. WHat town had a factory close six months ago. What town has another factory that just got a contract to build helicopters for the Army. Sometimes when the Lion's Club in Town A can no longer host a show, maybe bookers don't always think far enough outside the box seeking other hosts before throwing in the towel and playing a lot and license -- because there's always the next town to worry about. This season at least six shows played parts of Michigan. Some of those shows were obligated to be there fulfilling satellite Shrine dates etc. One show may have made money because historically they're less concerned with paperwork. Everybody else should have know months in advance that the economy in Michigan was awful, and high fuel prices only made things worse. But it's difficult to wildcat into a dozen towns in a different State with only sixty or ninety days to change two weeks of route. So lots of shows went, and nobody was bragging about the money they made. Ironically if the auto industry turned on a dime in the next year and Michigan was booming; well it's a good guess there won't be many circuses there to cash in because the shows that suffered this season will route around it in 07' and 08'. Therein lies the advantage to small regional shows, flexibility.

Ben

14 November, 2006 10:27

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